overrating his upside plus the bidding war for cutler drove his asking price upQuote:
Originally Posted by acetoolguy
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overrating his upside plus the bidding war for cutler drove his asking price upQuote:
Originally Posted by acetoolguy
fixed it for ya :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Reade
Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
Either way its been a long time
I hated this at first (see my earlier post). While riding the clattering el home from work earlier, causing this to jolt around in my mind and finally settle in, I began to realize that while the Broncos gain a lot from this, the Bears also stand to benefit.
1) The Bears lose two first round picks. It sounds like a lot, but the Bears are terrible with first round picks. For some reason, Angelo can score big in later rounds, but he's a terrible first round drafter.
2) The Bears gain a young QB, and while he is not Brady, Manning or Brees, he's easily at the very top of the second tier of QBs. He's exceptionally mobile and athletic, he has a cannon for an arm (an accurate one at that), and he can only get better. On top of this, he's healthy. And he played under Shanahan (couldn't possibly hurt a guy's experience). I do not see him as a crybaby. There's no way of knowing whether he was in the right or wrong the way he handled things with the Broncos, but I don't think it's a complete indictment on his character that he demanded a trade.
Earlier on ESPN, Mark Schlereth criticized his leadership, and claimed that Orton had gained the respect of the team and had become a leader. I say, so what? Leader of what? A below average offense? I LOVE Orton, and I think he has a potentially great future, but Cutler is undeniably more talented. This signals a complete makeover of the offense.
3) The Bears simultaneously signed a tackle, who, if healthy, can be among the best in the league. They've also shown that they might actually be committed to building a winning team after all. The Cutler move shows that the front office is focused on the immediate future, which leads me to believe the signing of a WR (Holt? Harrison?) may not be far off, and that they could be a big player in next year's FA market.
4) The Bear defense, while weak last year, is still only a couple of years removed from being the league's best defense. There's no denying they have the talent that still has them at or near the top of the league defensively.
5) Cutler fits Turner's offense better than pretty much any QB out there could.
6) Forte has already proven that he's an excellent RB, and can only get better. The Bears are now well above average in terms of QB and RB. They have a physical freak of a playmaker in Hester (who can't outrun Cutler's arm like he did Orton's), the NFL's best TE duo, and an offensive line which should be better than the 2008 OL.
7) The Bears are no longer in need of a tackle with the addition of Shaffer and Pace, and with Williams set to more or less make his NFL debut. Their second round pick can be used on a WR, or depth for the defense.
8) Orton was set to walk after a good 2009 anyway, and there are no QBs of Cutler's caliber coming up in the draft in 2009 or 2010, and it doesn't look like there's one coming up in free agency next season.
I guess I like the trade. I'm excited and kinda scared at the same time. If the Bears play their cards right from here on out, they've got great chances. I think they're already at least neck-and-neck with Minnesota right now in terms of being the favorite for the NFC Central in 2009. I think the offense will be in the top third of NFL offenses, granted that they find a couple of receivers to go along with Cutler, Forte, and those top notch tight ends.
Go Bears!
Nice post there Joe, but I have to say a good QB and RB is nothing without the offensive line, and its looking like they are trying to make a great unit out there.
They should be able to land a good WR in the 2nd round, as that is probably on of the deepest positions in the draft this year. I really wish the Vikings would have made a greater effort to get him. Oh well, I'll see what Sage gives us.
Mark Schlereth doesn't think the Broncs will win 5 games this year.
So apprarently, with Cutler we make the playoffs. Without him we're as bad as Oakland.
Interesting.
The OL could be a crapshoot, but there's still a lot of time between now and September. They're at least average AND deep at tackle with Pace, Williams and Shaffer, and could potentially be excellent (if they're blessed with good health). They're average at guard, and they still have a good center.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
One good thing about the good QB/RB combo is that it takes some pressure off the line. In the past, opposing defenses could stack things upfront because the Bears were weak in the passing game. Now, they can't. Also, keep in mind that the Bears tend to play a lot of 2 TE sets, which also takes pressure off the line, and strengthens things up front.
One last thing... Cutler is the kind of QB that can make an average line look better than they really are with his ability to stay alive in the pocket.
The Bears don't have a BAD line (like they did in 2007), and last year their line overachieved. The talent should be better in '09, which leads me to believe that, at worst, they're average or slightly above, and at best, they're well above average.
They'll pick up a lineman or two in the draft (probably in the 4th and 5th rounds), and could still add a body or two for depth.
Overall, Denver wins this trade. 2 firsts AND a third, and having bonus 1st and 3rd rounder this year basically means they can move anywhere they want in the draft, or trade for a vet they want now. Orton isn't great, BUT playing in a quick pass offense that seems to fit his skills, and throwing to Marshall and Royal, isn't going to hurt him at all.
As for Capt. Whiner...good luck putting up 4500 yards throwing to Earl Bennett and Devin Hester. And now they can't draft a receiver to step in. Let's not forget that the Bears defense was NOT all that great last year and they really can't work on it now, either. The Pace signing is okay...except he hasn't made it through even half a year in, what now, THREE seasons? The only good part of this for Chi Town is that they get Cutler on his rookie deal which pays him less than $2 mil per year for this year and the next two after this one, and he's really in no position to demand a rework of his contract.
Joe, I think you're seriously deluding yourself on Pace. Sure, he was one of the best in the league...6-7 years ago. He was released for a reason. Even if he stays healthy, a huge if, he's still barely an above average tackle at this point in his career
Believe me, I have absolutely NO illusions concerning the Bears' offensive line. I'm as skeptical as anyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by etothep
Pace was a Pro Bowler and All NFC selection as recently as 2005, and a first team All Pro as recently as 2004. He's missed a great deal of the time since then due to injury... therefore, we can't really draw any conclusions about the quality of his play, we can only conclude that he's been an injury risk recently.
I'm not dumb; I do understand that this isn't the same Orlando Pace as 9 or 10 years ago, but I also understand he's one of the most experienced tackles in the league, he's a future Hall of Famer, and a team that's been very hesitant about signing free agents this season has been bold enough to sign him for THREE years. The main reason he was released, by the way, is cap space.
Like I implied in my last post in this thread... give the Bears an average offensive line, and they will have an above average offense.
Come on now... what do YOU say if your NEW coach walks in out of nowhere and suddenly wants to trade you? I give the guy the benefit of the doubt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Blast
And Matt Forte, and Desmond Clark and Greg Olsen. BESIDES, the offseason isn't over, and the Bears still have time to sign/draft WRs, which they are almost guaranteed to do. No, he won't pass for 4500, probably not even 4000, but with this signing and with last year's offense, there is nowhere to go but UP.Quote:
good luck putting up 4500 yards throwing to Earl Bennett and Devin Hester.
Wrong... they're actually in the best spot possible to draft one. They wouldn't have gotten anyone in Round 1 that would have been all that much better than Round 2. Very deep WR pool in this draft, most of them starting in the mid Round 2 territory.Quote:
And now they can't draft a receiver to step in.
Cutler has always been a bit of a whiner though. Ever since Vanderbilt.Quote:
Come on now... what do YOU say if your NEW coach walks in out of nowhere and suddenly wants to trade you? I give the guy the benefit of the doubt.
He said the organization was in the "wrong direction" after they fired Shanahan. And that they "better keep the quarterbacks coach around or I will be upset".
These are things better left unsaid to the public eye. He's a bit of a whiner.
I'll sort through your homer talk for now & say you likely won't be worse offensively than you guys were last yearQuote:
Originally Posted by Joe12Pack
Bears' offensive ranks last season:
Offensive DVOA - 22nd
Weighted Offense - 25th
Passing Offense - 21st
Rushing Offense - 24th
And for what it's worth, Chicago's O-line was average last year (they were in the middle 3rd in most run-blocking metrics including Adjusted Line Yards, Power Success, Times Stuffed, & Runs of 10+ Yards while ranking in the top 3rd in Adjusted Sack Rate).
I guess we'll see if it was Cutler making Royal, Marshall, Scheffler, & Graham look good, if he looked good cause he had them as targets or, most likely, a mixture of both
I'd still much prefer being on the Broncos end of that deal by a wide margin (assuming they don't Jarvis Moss these 2 first rounders they picked up)
Joe12pack should have the definitive statement on this trade. His last few posts were succinct, clear and dead on!
I was very skeptical that the Bears could pull this off, and was quite pleasantly surprised that they managed this. I see no downside at all to this deal. The Bears get a franchise QB for 10 or so years for a low price.