Now now, I just called your post moronic, not you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
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Now now, I just called your post moronic, not you. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
I'm canadian, so I guess my perspective is a bit different than you americans on the topic of guns.Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
Americans have a wide variety of opinions on guns as wellQuote:
Originally Posted by gosensgo101
That seems stereotypical.Quote:
Originally Posted by gosensgo101
Honestly, I'm with Fili. The cop had no idea what was going on until another officer told him that indeed his mother in law was dying.
To which he responded "Alright I'm almost done". That's where it turns into a poor move by the cop.
But when a car doesn't pull over right away, people jump out the instant the car pulls over (certainly one as large as an NFL player) you don't know what is about to happen. Pulling the gun is probably instinct at that point.
Sure, it looks terrible to us because we know all the circumstances. But hindsight is always 20/20. The cop didn't know if Moats was telling the truth or not. He could have handled it better, yes. Especially after Moats' story was backed up but we can't call for the firing of an officer based off what we know.
And now it turns out that this same cop is also facing a hearing ALREADY for lying in a police report in January. So, yeah, I think this probably finishes him off.
Ok what blows all the theories for the cops side out the window is the fact that he pulled them over in the hospital parking lot. How many crimes do you hear of where somebody plans to rob a bank, kill someone, kidnap someone in a hospital parking lot? Nobody. What is worse is when he did get out of his car, the wife was in hysterics screaming her mom is dying and she went into the hospital. She didnt try to run through the bushes, she ran into the ****ing hospital.
How many people can get away from a police officer in the hospital? Now the husband is saying he needs to go in there and the officer is being a dick. I dont give a ****, he is in no danger what so ever being in a hospital parking lot because nobody plans to shoot anybody there. You now have two people in hysterics over this and the cop still wants to take his sweet time and give a ticket. Its bull. Its racism, theres no other way around it.
And houston to respond what does a persons religious beliefs have to do with a matter, well its a lot if youre atheist. I feel like once your gone, you are gone, so I would like to be their in a persons lasts moments to say goodbye because they are not going to hear that once they are gone. Thats why I said it threw me for a loop that fili has no regard for somebody in their last stages of life.
I don't think that has anything to do with religion. A religious person is going to want to be there just as much as a non-religious person. That's just human nature.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
please no religious debate :'(
Excellent!
This thread as given me insight as to how to commit the perfect crime.
All I need is a bank in reasonable proximity to a hospital parking lot.
I rob the bank. Make like a bat out of hell until I get to the hospital.
The only irrational cop in America who would dare to question me is on suspension in Dallas so if any other officer of the law approaches me I will simply start ranting about how dare he impede me as my mother-in-law is dying in the hospital and presto! I'm off scott free
:rolleyes:
Keep in mind one of my first postsQuote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
Now, AFTER watching the video, it appears that Moats didn't pull over for some time after the officer first attempted to pull him over.Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
That's a mistake on Moats' part. Because your mother-in-law is at the hospital dying isn't a reason to disregard traffic laws (running the red light) and disregard an officer trying to pull you over.
I don't know for certain, and neither do you, but PERHAPS if Moats had pulled over immediately and explained the situation this whole incident would have gone down differently.
Say what you want, but refusing to pull over when an officer signals you is a BAD IDEA.
Your near unintelligible sentence here ("How many?" "Nobody" ??? Rob a bank in a hospital parking lot???) doesn't prove anything. If you think that a crime has never occurred in a hospital parking lot, I'd be willing to bet you a large sum of money that you are not correct.Quote:
How many crimes do you hear of where somebody plans to rob a bank, kill someone, kidnap someone in a hospital parking lot? Nobody.
Wrong.Quote:
What is worse is when he did get out of his car, the wife was in hysterics screaming her mom is dying and she went into the hospital. She didnt try to run through the bushes, she ran into the ****ing hospital.
How many people can get away from a police officer in the hospital? Now the husband is saying he needs to go in there and the officer is being a dick. I dont give a ****, he is in no danger what so ever being in a hospital parking lot because nobody plans to shoot anybody there.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29835093/
So let's see.Quote:
Man Shot In Hospital Parking Lot Standoff
HOUSTON - A man was hospitalized after a standoff with police in a hospital parking lot, KPRC Local 2 reported.
Webster police said an injured man was in the parking lot of Clear Lake Regional Medical Center at about 11 p.m. Sunday.
Webster Police Chief Ray Smiley said Steve Moran's father took him to the hospital after Moran had been involved in multiple hit-and-run collisions in Houston.
"The father went inside to summon medical aid," Smiley said. "When the medical aid from inside the hospital went out, the man pointed something at them and told them in language I can't use here that they needed to get away or he would kill them."
Moran repeatedly threatened to shoot officers, investigators said.
There was a shooting in a hospital parking lot. A man threatened to shoot a police officer in a hospital parking lot.
When and where did this happen?
Sunday, March 22nd in Houston Texas
When and where did the Moats incident happen?
March 18th in Dallas Texas.
Interesting. I guess that it is not unheard of in the state of Texas for their to be violence threatened against police officers in hospital parking lots.
In the article that I posted
A car drove to the hospital parking lot. One individual exited the car and entered the hospital
In the article that you posted
A car drove to the hospital parking lot. One individeual exited the car and entered the hospital
In the article that I posted
When the hospital staff went to assist the individual remaining in the car he threatened to kill them.
In the article that you posted
The individual remaining in the car was concerned about the well-being of his mother-in-law.
What more do I need to say. Two nearly identical situations with two very different outcomes. An officer needs to be prepared for anything to happen.
To summerize, Rage, your argument that nobody ever commits violence in hospital parking lots is
Some more websites with information regarding violence in hospitals.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
http://www.gcc.state.nc.us/Crime_Pre...community.htmlQuote:
Hospital Watch
As crime increases across the board, hospitals have not been immune. In fact, hospitals today witness more than their share of violence and crime - shootings inside hospitals, altercations between rivals in the lounges, kidnapping, baby switching and pilfering.
As a result of several such tragic instances, Hospital Watch was developed by the Crime Prevention Unit in conjunction with the Southeastern Safety/ Security Health Care Council of North Carolina.
This program specifically addresses security issues unique to the hospital environment and coordinates the efforts of law enforcement, hospital security and hospital staff to create a safer atmosphere in and around hospitals. The immediate goal of Hospital Watch is to reduce crime in hospitals by teaching the staff basic crime prevention. The secondary goal is for the staff to take this information to their homes and continue to practice solid crime prevention by organizing and participating in their own Community Watch program.
By learning and practicing fundamental crime prevention techniques, Hospital Watch seeks to significantly reduce the likelihood that anyone will be victimized by crime while in a hospital. Hospital staff and security personnel are trained in much the same manner as are Community Watch volunteers. Hospital personnel are trained to observe, challenge and report any suspicious activity, but not to intervene in dangerous situations. (Technical assistance available.)
http://www.iahss.org/
I absolutely agree with you. After the officer was informed that Moats' mother-in-law was in fact in the the hospital he should have acted differently.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
There is another way around it. See aboveQuote:
Its bull. Its racism, theres no other way around it.
[delete] [delete] [censer] [delete]Quote:
And houston to respond what does a persons religious beliefs have to do with a matter, well its a lot if youre atheist. I feel like once your gone, you are gone, so I would like to be their in a persons lasts moments to say goodbye because they are not going to hear that once they are gone. Thats why I said it threw me for a loop that fili has no regard for somebody in their last stages of life.
Ahem...I would appreciate that you don't assume that I have 'no regard for somebody in their last stages of life'. That is quite frankly not the case.
Fili,
You are wrong.
Plain and simple.
Wrong.
Sometimes you seem to want to take a side just to see how it feels.
This is unacceptable behavior from a cop, and you can spin like Fox News if you want to, it doesn't change it.
And he is going to get fired.
So keep debating all you want.
And I hope you're never in an emergency situation and run accross a bad cop.
Well, maybe after reading your posts, I hope you do.
And yes, that was totally just being a smartass post. :o
OFG, you are wrong. Plain and simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldFatGuy
I wish you the best
Nope, not this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
Dude, you can post all the theory you want about threat and this and that.
The real world is not black and white, it's all sorts of shades of gray.
Our police officers need to be able to use sound judgement and make good calls in all these shades of gray. Which is why they are trained.
We, as a society, can't have cops with Rambo complexes, anymore than we can have cops with happy trigger fingers. They are there to protect AND SERVE.
I tried to be funny, but failed.
You tried to take a losing argument, but failed.
I wish you the best to.
I am not saying that the cop was completely right. I've never said that, and I've said that at a point he was flat out wrong.
I'm saying that from the moment he first saw the car run the light until some point after that, he has to treat the situation as dangerous.
Moats also ****ed up in this situation. But, because his mother-in-law was dying, he gets treated as faultless.
That's my point, the situation isn't as black and white as the cop ****ed up and Moats did nothing wrong.
Moats turned on his four way flashers, slowed down and checked traffic before running the red light, and didn't stop when the police officer turned on his lights. (Although from the video, it appears to me the cop didn't even catch up to him until he was ready to turn into the hospital parking lot).
All technically (in a black and white world) wrong.
Now, if next week my mother goes into convulsions while I'm taking her to the grocery store, I'm going to do every one of those things (and more, because I'm going to break the speeding limit too). And I too will have my four way flashers on (like he did), and will keep going until I get to the hospital.
And when I get there, if that cop pulls a gun, he had better shoot, and he had better not miss. Otherwise, I'm not dealing with him, I'm carrying my mother into the emergecy room.
And you know what??? If that occurred, I'm 99.9% sure the cop would understand (and probably not even write a ticket, although he may) and try to help. And if he wrote the ticket, it would be AFTER my mom was in the ER. That's because 99.9% of cops are decent, and they're all well trained.
No, that isn't EXACTLY the situation above. But it's similar enough.
The fact you're insisiting on overlooking is race. I don't know if it's because you consider it not a factor until proven a factor, or what. But I've lived in Texas, and I know race is ALWAYS an issue there. I'd bet you could google "Dallas Police" and "Race relations" and get a thousand hits. I'll try after posting this.
This was a white cop, pulling over a black male. And I don't have to wait for "proof" that race was a factor. That may not be fair, but neither is racism. I can't prove race was a factor any more than you can prove it wasn't, but it just seems to me this is the biggest point of the situation that you refuse to acknowledge.
So, I'll ask you this.
If it comes out later that this same cop was a card carrying member of the KKK, and had posted racist remarks all over the internet using various aliases, would that at all change you view of how he handled this?
And I'm sorry about my smartass post above, I was trying to be as snarky as possible, but instead of making my point in a funny, albeit with a sharp point, way, it didn't work (and usually doesn't for me in this medium, my snarkiness always comes off as simply snarky with no humor.) I need to work on not doing that.
But when issues have the possibility of affecting me personally, I take them more seriously. I can easily envision the scenario I posted above. Easily. And if I'm unlucky enough to get that 0.01% bad cop in my scenario, then both my mom and I will likely die, because I'm NOT going to put up with any ******** from a cop while trying to get my mother to a hospital. And as Americans, we don't have to. We don't give our cops unlimited, unquestioned authority. They have rules too.
And I still wish you the best.
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldFatGuy
I've never had training as a police officer, but I have had training as an EMT/First responder. One of the first things you are taught is to control the situation.
When you attempt to pull a car over, the car refuses for the amount of time that Moats did, when it finally pulls over people immediately jump out screaming and running around, that is not control of the situation. At that point the cop has every right and responsibility to assure his safety and the safety of anyone else around.
THIS is the point where the cop did a bad job. He didn't handle the situation at all well from there.
He needs to cautiously and quickly ascertain what is going on.
Was he affected by the race of the occupants of the car? Maybe. Maybe not. Regardless, he didn't do a good job.
The point where I disagree with rage (and others) is his saying that 'nothing bad ever happens in a hospital and the cop should have just let them go'.
I don't think that is correct. Rage is definitely incorrect to say that nothing ever happens in a hospital parking lot. We know that. The officer has to figure out what is going on.
If the cop HAD just let them go into the hospital and they HAD shot someone then what story would we have?
"Cop doesn't do his job. Lets criminal walk into hospital and open fire. The cop was asked why he let an armed person walk into a hospital and open fire he replied, "they were very hysterical and told me that their mom was inside" so I let them go". I bet we'd have a problem there too.
If Moats pulls over immediately, he probably gets a police escort to the hospital and we don't have a story.
While you may take an issue more seriously if it has a possibility of effecting you, I don't. I try to weight issues regardless of the personal impact that they have. A lot of things that will never effect me are more important than a lot of things that will...
Well, first of all, Moats didn't delay for a long time. If you watch the video, it was quite some time before the cop caught up to Moats. You are NOT required to pull over the second blue lights appear in your rear view. If the blue lights are 1/2 mile behind you, you don't pull over right away.
In fact, IIRC, by the time the cop pulled up behind him, he was almost in the hospital.
So, I'm not sure where you're getting the "refuses for the amount of time Moats did" from. I'm going to go watch it again, but I could've sworn the police car didn't pull up behind him until he was almost in the hospital parking lot.
Secondly, I definitely disagree with your whole take on how cops should approach situations. It sounds like to me you're suggesting they treat every situation as a threat. I think they should treat every situation as a potential threat, but not treat everyone as a an actual threat until there's a reason to.
And rushing into a hospital with four way emergency flashers isn't a reason to assume an actual threat. If I'm observing a car with four way emergency flashers on rushing into a hospital, my initial observation is going to be it's some sort of an emergency, not it's some sort of threat. This is where good judgement comes in.
And yes, that makes cops vulnerable. They know this and accept this and are trained for it. They are there to protect AND serve, and not to treat everyone and everything as a life or death threat, even though it may well be.
It's a tough job, and an unfair one. But it is what it is, because we can't accept cops with guns and badges and unlimited authority without using good judgement. We must insist on that.
But, I'll leave now. For real this time. Sorry about that last time. Sometimes with your intellect it's difficult for me to tell when you're doing something because you really believe it and when you're doing something just as some sort of mental challenge to take another position. Whatever, knock yourself out.
The fact is when things might affect me personally I do care, because when they don't affect me personally, I don't. You could be standing on your head naked, doing drugs, and jerking off to Frank Sinatra right now and I DON'T CARE. I try to keep my nose out of things that don't concern me. If I'm on my way to the hospital with my mother and this cop or one like him pulls this crap on me, then you'll get to see OFG in the news. Because he's going to have to kill me.
http://law.onecle.com/texas/transpor...45.156.00.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by OldFatGuy
http://law.onecle.com/texas/transpor...45.204.00.htmlQuote:
§ 545.156. VEHICLE APPROACHED BY AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY
VEHICLE. (a) On the immediate approach of an authorized emergency
vehicle using audible and visual signals that meet the requirements
of Sections 547.305 and 547.702, or of a police vehicle lawfully
using only an audible signal, an operator, unless otherwise
directed by a police officer, shall:
(1) yield the right-of-way;
(2) immediately drive to a position parallel to and as
close as possible to the right-hand edge or curb of the roadway
clear of any intersection; and
(3) stop and remain standing until the authorized
emergency vehicle has passed.
(b) This section does not exempt the operator of an
authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard
for the safety of all persons using the highway.
Maybe 'immediate approach' could be argued. But, IMO, it's common sense that if a police car is behind you, and you can see hit lights and hear his siren, you pull over.Quote:
§ 545.204. STREETCAR APPROACHED BY AUTHORIZED EMERGENCY
VEHICLE. (a) On the immediate approach of an authorized emergency
vehicle using audible and visual signals that meet the requirements
of Sections 547.305 and 547.702, or of a police vehicle lawfully
using only an audible signal, the operator of a streetcar shall
immediately stop the streetcar clear of any intersection and remain
there until the authorized emergency vehicle has passed, unless
otherwise directed by a police officer.
(b) This section does not exempt the operator of an
authorized emergency vehicle from the duty to drive with due regard
for the safety of all persons using the highway.
As someone who's gone on a few ride alongs in ambulances and fire trucks, it's much better if you pull over too early than too late.
Quote:
The fact is when things might affect me personally I do care, because when they don't affect me personally, I don't. You could be standing on your head naked, doing drugs, and jerking off to Frank Sinatra right now and I DON'T CARE. I try to keep my nose out of things that don't concern me.
I know that this quote is intended to be used against government, but it works here too...sometimes it's ok to be concerned about something that doesn't directly involve you.Quote:
“They came first for the Communists…but I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a communist. Then they came for the Jews…but I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the Unionists…but I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Unionist. Then they came for the Catholics…but I didn’t speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me…and by that time there was no one left to speak for me.”
I laughed when you actually took the time to google search crimes and hospitals. Give me a break. :rolleyes: Oh and listen to your elders fili, cuz they are usually onto something (OFG). :D Have a wonderful day.
That's ok, because I laughed when you didn't ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
You think it's funny to know what you're talking about, and I think it's funny to talk out of your ass.
To each their own
lol uh huh, your really onto something with this one, look at all ur supporters....oh wait you have none. A$$Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
I'm not saying, I'm just saying...Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showpos...4&postcount=49
If your best argument is to call names and say things that aren't true, you can have all the support in the world and I won't respect you.Quote:
How many people can get away from a police officer in the hospital? Now the husband is saying he needs to go in there and the officer is being a dick. I dont give a ****, he is in no danger what so ever being in a hospital parking lot because nobody plans to shoot anybody there.
Wrong.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29835093/
Quote:
Man Shot In Hospital Parking Lot Standoff
HOUSTON - A man was hospitalized after a standoff with police in a hospital parking lot,
you started the name calling dude, i mean saying im talking out of my ass, is pretty much calling me an ass. Unless your going to find away to Fox news that one to make it seem like your calling me a great guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...f%20your%20assQuote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
No, if I called you an 'asshat' that was talking out of your ass, that would be calling you a name. I was simply stating that you didn't know what the F you were talking about. Which you didn't.Quote:
1. talking out of your ass 67 up, 6 down
When someone says something stupid that they have no proof of. For example, "The Space Shuttle was destroyed by TERRORISTS!"
That asshat's talking out of his ass again
by Legato Feb 18, 2003 share this
2. talking out of your ass 43 up, 8 down
Uttering ******** or talking nonsense. Most commonly done by managers and corporate whores.
Employee: Will you make some sense and stop talking out of your ass?
Management: YOU'RE FIRED!!!
by AYB Feb 18, 2003 share this
3. talking out of your ass 16 up, 38 down
A person that talks just to hear there self talk.
U sound better talking out of ur mouth not ur ass.
by cartman5000 Jul 25, 2004 share this
According to 1 person I dont know what im talking about, it happens, ill get over it. The majority I would assume by reading this thinks of you as arrogant and refusing to see the other side. You resorted to name calling, you resorted to having to berate me. I never once condemned you for your opinion, I was arguing your opinion. Apparently you couldnt take it so you resort to childlike behavior. Go ahead and spin away to make yourself look better cuz you need all the help you can get.Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
Have a great day! :)
This is one of the reasons I hate the police.
This is your first post in this thread. Think you might be a little biased against the cop before looking at the facts?
I watched the video, and there is no way that the guy didn't see the police lights. Should he have stopped while his mother in law was dying? Maybe, maybe not. I probably would have. But, I can understand why he didn't, and I can also understand how that would cause the officer to be a little on edge, don't you?
Also, as soon as the car stops, people run out of the car, a big no-no when the police pull you over. How was he supposed to know that they weren't packing, especially when it is not outlandish for him to be thinking that they were avoiding pulling over.
Could they, in the officer's head, be hesitating to pull over because they need time to get out a weapon? It's reasonable to think that, right?
And yes, a cop must ALWAYS assume that something extreme will happen, so that something bad won't happen to him.
Like here...
and here...
and here...
and here...
I could post more, but I think I've made my point. The only time this officer was in the wrong was when it was confirmed to him by another officer that their story was indeed true.
The outcome of his action was sad and may have been avoided if the driver had stopped, explained himself, and asked for a police escort.
Or, maybe the guy is a racist and just wanted to give the driver a hard time. No one knows but the officer.
To say, however, that his actions up to the point that he learned without any doubt that the story was accurate were unfounded is simple not right.
I don't know about you, but I'd rather risk having sad and unfortunate incidents like this one occur, that incidents like those is the videos i posted.
Unless, of course, you just hate cops. :)
I support Fili.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
you know what. Its cool, theres better things to get angry at. I was angry that fili called me an ass, but you know what, i sent him an apology not to make myself look good, but its how I felt, i dont like negativity and I was wrong to hold fili with such contempt. It doesnt change my opinion, but I couldve went about things better. I just hope he accepts my apology for what it is. No sarcasm, but we live in a short world, and its not worth getting into dispute for such things.Quote:
Originally Posted by 200tang
just an awful story :(
I'd like to apologize to rage.
We both took this discussion somewhere where it didn't need to go. Unfortunately that can happen when two people believe strongly in something.
I hope rage will accept my apology and I hope that anyone who's been reading along will forgive my transgression.
I still believe in the point that I was arguing but I took to arguing it in the wrong way.
I'm sorry.
group hug? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok