simplest way to fix this is to make average run of the mill baseball fans care about it...like me, i couldn't possibly care any less about it win or lose
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simplest way to fix this is to make average run of the mill baseball fans care about it...like me, i couldn't possibly care any less about it win or lose
How is that ridiculous, from the team standpoint? Why, if I'm the owner of a team, would I want my $150 million investment out there pitching or running around for any other team, PERIOD? I'm the one paying him, NOT his national team.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5dodgers5
Because expanding MLB into the world market will make you more money in the long run? You greedy ******* :)
That's a bit ignorant isn't it? Chan Ho Park is having a great career in the MLB. He's been an All-Star and if you take out his Texas stats, is a great pitcher. Other Koreans like Shin-Soo Choo, Byung-Hyun Kim and Cha Seung Baek have played well in the MLB. Even guys like Hee-seop Choi got to the Majors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe12Pack
Merely the facts. Sorry if you don't like them and want to pretend that they're different.Quote:
Originally Posted by asianinvasion
Are you thinking of the same Chan Ho Park that I am? I'm a Dodger fan and I mostly love the guy, but I'm not gonna claim he's having a "great" career by any means.Quote:
Chan Ho Park is having a great career in the MLB.
Oh, so if you remove half his career, he's great.Quote:
He's been an All-Star and if you take out his Texas stats, is a great pitcher.
Listing a guy with 159 career GP, a guy who completely blew up after a few good seasons as a reliever, and a dude with a 86 career ERA+ hardly stands against my argument that practically no Koreans can succeed.Quote:
Other Koreans like Shin-Soo Choo, Byung-Hyun Kim and Cha Seung Baek have played well in the MLB.
Thanks for helping my point.Quote:
Even guys like Hee-seop Choi got to the Majors.
Point being: They sure can get there, a few of them can be serviceable, but there's practically no Korean impact on MLB.
Ok, I guess I misunderstood you. When I think of succeed in the MLB, I'm thinking of getting to the bigs and playing a few years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe12Pack
Umm isn't that the reason why you want to switch the season date for the next WBC, because it start before the season?You should stop whining, its a short tournament where 1 game lost equal elimination. Be happy that we actually reach the final round this time. Though it seem we were the weakess team in the final record wise.Quote:
Korea and Japan begin preparations earlier in the season.
Because a nation is more important than a team. That's why it's ridiculous. I can see the team's opinion, and I think that that opinion is ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Blast
Why does it need to be fixed? is this just a "America must always win" mentality, the same one that lead to the need for USA basketball to pospone is season so USA can win games by 50 points to make us feel good?
If players feel that their career is more important than playing in an international exhibition we should hold that against him?
Becasue a team doesn't want to send its 100 million dollar investment to a money making MLB sideshow that's wrong?
Because its inconvenient to "us" we need to change when it held?
If your beef is poor management, that's one thing, but don't hold players and teams that don't want to participate accountable and don't blame the format.
It's not that America isn't winning, exactly. It's that America is being ridiculed. All the players out there seem to not be ready, exactly, so one thing that could be changed that would benefit ALL teams would be to make the tournament shorter and later in spring training, so that players are more ready to play actual games. Also, I don't have a problem with a player saying no, that's his decision. But when the player shows desire to play (for instance, John Lackey) and his held back by his team, that shouldn't be allowed to happen.
We get ridiculed for lots of things by foreign nations besides sports. Sometimes rightfully so.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5dodgers5
I think that's almost as much due to structural things than talent. They don't want their best players leaving for America. I know that Japan has rules in place that make it difficult for their players to go to the US, and I presume that Korea does as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe12Pack
However, so long as the owner of the team is the one whose investment in the player is at risk, that's how it's going to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by 5dodgers5
Quote:
Originally Posted by gRYFYN1
well said
I don't see America being ridiculed by anyone other than a few in here. And if "americans" aren't ready, how about all the "american" ball players on Japan, Dominican, PR, and elsewhere? Why are they "ready"??Quote:
Originally Posted by 5dodgers5
Its an exhibition....and a pretty good one at that.
Our approach needs to be fixed. It's obvious. It's obvious to everyone from the commissioner of the MLB, to the people on ESPN, to more "enlightened" analysts, to Joe Schmo, to me and my friends, to some people on these forums.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRYFYN1
I don't understand what's so wrong about wanting to see my country win a tournament and expecting that they don't make a joke out of themselves in a semifinals game. I actually sense a lot of subtle anti-patriotism throughout this entire thread. There seems to be more arguments that allude to this knuckledragging philosophy that "America is duh best and muss win all duh games" (not how I feel) and arguments that Japanese or Korean or Dominican baseball is, on the whole, equal to American baseball (in the case of the first two, simply leaving it up to a mystical/unknown element of the sport over there and providing nothing more), than there are arguments simply saying the team was fine and that they could have won if Adam Dunn had just ripped a couple of homers instead of striking out and bumbling around in the outfield (sample size).
Nope. And I don't hold anything against players who chose not to participate.Quote:
If players feel that their career is more important than playing in an international exhibition we should hold that against him?
Not really. But this touches up on another topic entirely, and that is the importance of this competition. If this were an ages-old competition and meant something, like the World Cup, whether or not the Yankees are cool with their guys playing in the WBC wouldn't even be an issue.Quote:
Becasue a team doesn't want to send its 100 million dollar investment to a money making MLB sideshow that's wrong?
I proposed some ideas that MLB could work on if they really want the best possible players in there, and I think they're very fair. Compensation draft picks, luxury tax breaks, and so on.
Besides, I think America could construct a better TEAM that actually makes sense, without simply going after all the big names with high price tags and huge risk in the event that something bad happens.
Actually, it's somewhat inconvenient to the Latin American nations and Canada as well. I think, if it's a huge inconvenience to a few countries, it's not all that terrible to throw the idea out there that the time could be changed. Japan and Korean baseball teams don't have as much invested in their guys as MLB teams do.Quote:
Because its inconvenient to "us" we need to change when it held?
I blame management first and foremost. I blame the selection process second. I blame the entire TeamUSA-MLB interaction system third. I blame the format last.Quote:
If your beef is poor management, that's one thing, but don't hold players and teams that don't want to participate accountable and don't blame the format.
That's why there's no mass impact (as in, 4 or 5 Asian players on each MLB team), but my main point was:Quote:
Originally Posted by dps
The best hitter in Japan (Ichiro) comes to America. He does very, very, very well, but he's nowhere near the best hitter in America.
One of Japan's top tier pitchers (DiceK) comes to America. He does very well, but he's not even a top 15 pitcher in MLB.
Chan Ho Park, Korea's top pitching prospect at one point, comes to America. He does well for a few seasons, but ultimately is a below average pitcher.
Japan's cleanup hitter in the championship game was a below average hitter in MLB. Korea's starting pitcher was an inferior pitcher in his time playing in MLB.
Performance in NPB doesn't really translate to MLB. Guys almost always get worse. The cream of the crop can do very well, and like I said, I'm guessing the top 10 to 20 or so percentile of Japanese talent could make 25 man rosters in MLB, but the rest of the league is inferior in terms of talent.
Most scouts and executives will tell you the same thing. They have guys who can excel here, but on the whole, the league is somewhere between MLB and American AAA, probably not much more than a hair above AAA.
I will agree with you on this much, anyone arguing that the other countries baseball is anywhere near the equivalent as MLB is a farce and that is pretty clear. This is a short series small sampling phenomenon. Nothing more. If they play this same tournament 100 times, the USA will win 80-90 of them. If this were a full season, the USA would win in a blow out.Quote:
Most scouts and executives will tell you the same thing. They have guys who can excel here, but on the whole, the league is somewhere between MLB and American AAA, probably not much more than a hair above AAA.
IMO, this is an exhibition showcasing the different talent and the game itself. Its good for the game that its short, and that the MLB spreads its talent. Its also good for the sport that the USA doesn't walk away with the win every time they meet. It would be nice if they could win the next one just to show they can win it however....but this event/exhibition is great globally for the sport of baseball.
I don't see where any major changes to the "approach" need to be done. I do think the players and team takes the games very seriously. If you want to suggest different players for the team makeup, thats one thing...but moving the tournament entirely IMO is unnecessary. If anyone for some reason thinks USA not winning this thing makes a mockery of the team and the USA....how do you think the world will look at it when the WBC caters to the USA because they didn't win by changing a bunch of rules that may favor them? Cmon now.
Even with the rules as they are currently, I still believe the USA is the best team in the best position to win it every time out there. If that is the case, again...then the system is not broken and had they won we wouldn't be talking about making changes. Because they are the best team in the best position to win it every time out there...i don't think we SHOULD be talking about making changes. That makes the US look more like a mockery than not winning it.
I don't think we'd win 80 to 90, but we'd definitely run away with this thing if it were a full season league. USA had a veritable MLB All Star team, Japan's team was made of NPB players, and even the best looking team on paper other than these 2 (the Dominican) was chock full of quality players, but was fairly weak in many aspects (outfield, pitching).Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
I could agree with this. I think a lot of opinions in this thread are based largely on how people view the WBC, and what kind of importance they place on it. I love the WBC, and I'd love to see it become a World Cup type of deal. Where it's more than an exhibition, and it's serious business. I love the World Cup (and I don't even like soccer that much) because of the insanely high quality of play there, the national pride, the pageantry, and the serious approach that's taken.Quote:
IMO, this is an exhibition showcasing the different talent and the game itself. Its good for the game that its short, and that the MLB spreads its talent. Its also good for the sport that the USA doesn't walk away with the win every time they meet. It would be nice if they could win the next one just to show they can win it however....but this event/exhibition is great globally for the sport of baseball.
I think the players take the game seriously too, but America just looked outmatched against Japan. It was a frustrating game to watch, because you know they aren't outmatched. If America loses but looks more respectable (in terms of play) doing so, I'm fine with it. But getting pounded by Puerto Rico and then fumbling and bumbling around the field against Japan... I don't think it's acceptable. I love the sport, I love my country, I know we can do better at this thing, whether or not we actually win it.Quote:
I don't see where any major changes to the "approach" need to be done. I do think the players and team takes the games very seriously. If you want to suggest different players for the team makeup, thats one thing...but moving the tournament entirely IMO is unnecessary. If anyone for some reason thinks USA not winning this thing makes a mockery of the team and the USA....how do you think the world will look at it when the WBC caters to the USA because they didn't win by changing a bunch of rules that may favor them? Cmon now.
Even with the rules as they are currently, I still believe the USA is the best team in the best position to win it every time out there. If that is the case, again...then the system is not broken and had they won we wouldn't be talking about making changes. Because they are the best team in the best position to win it every time out there...i don't think we SHOULD be talking about making changes. That makes the US look more like a mockery than not winning it.
I didn't see the last game other than the first two innings. It was 1-0 USA at that time if im not mistaken. From what I hear of it though, I do agree with you the USA should not be fumbling and bumbling around the field. Was it a lack of effort or the players on the team, or was it a bad day at the office in a short series? Hard to say. Sometimes you look foolish while trying hard and sometimes you look great while coasting.Quote:
I think the players take the game seriously too, but America just looked outmatched against Japan. It was a frustrating game to watch, because you know they aren't outmatched. If America loses but looks more respectable (in terms of play) doing so, I'm fine with it. But getting pounded by Puerto Rico and then fumbling and bumbling around the field against Japan... I don't think it's acceptable. I love the sport, I love my country, I know we can do better at this thing, whether or not we actually win it.
I applaud the talk of the tourney though. While i view it an exhibition I love it! I went to the Domincan / USA game during WBC I in Orlando and it was wild. One of the best sporting events i've ever been too. I would be against major changes to it though as I dont' personally see them necessary. I think in time, this tourney may develop into more than it currently is, but to do that we need other countries winning, other players being showcased and the global game to grow.