Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
200tang
True, but the 'powerhouse' nations had better pitching staffs in my mind than the USA. If any team had pitching to gain from players who didn't participate it would've been Venezuela with Johan Santana and Carlos Zambrano. That would've been a sick 1-2-3 with Felix.
Seriously, the USA couldn't benefit from players who didn't participate?
Lincecum/Sabathia/Webb(or Peavy) > Santana/Zambrano/Felix (by FAR).
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I knew I'd get this comparison but I dont know....it seems like that's what they're aiming for so I thought I would use it as an example. I'm not saying I would be opposed to giving baseball teams taxes or something for compensation, but I just don't get why it's needed. If one sport can do it why not baseball?
I understand the comparison you made and why you made it, but in context it just seems silly. The World Cup is prestigious, and it really means something. Especially since soccer is a thing of pride, and there's no clearcut favorite. The point of the WBC is that it's building pride among nations, and establishing the sport internationally. Anyone with half a brain (in baseball terms) knows that America should be knocking the crap out of all the other teams in baseball... save maybe the DR and Japan, where we wouldn't be mopping the floor with them, but would still be beating them soundly in a vacuum. But we're lazy about it because it doesn't matter.
The fact that America dominates softball so much is one of the main speculated reasons that baseball and softball have been removed from the IOC's list of events. By my own argument that America should be winning year in, year out, maybe there shouldn't be a WBC at all...
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Even in a 162 game season I'd take those guys over Dunn. Did they ask those guys to play though?
I'd take them over Dunn in 162 also, I guess, unless I needed a DH and already had outfielders. I was just trying to say, Dunn has great value, but in this type of competition, he's obviously inferior to Kemp or Markakis, especially since Japan has 3 of those types of guys in their outfield.
I'm not sure if they were asked to play... if not, they most certainly should have been.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
Joe12Pack
Seriously, the USA couldn't benefit from players who didn't participate?
Lincecum/Sabathia/Webb(or Peavy) > Santana/Zambrano/Felix (by FAR).
I didn't say they didn't have anything to gain, just that Zambrano and Santana are far and away better than Carlos Silva and Victor Zambrano by far.
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I understand the comparison you made and why you made it, but in context it just seems silly. The World Cup is prestigious, and it really means something. Especially since soccer is a thing of pride, and there's no clearcut favorite. The point of the WBC is that it's building pride among nations, and establishing the sport internationally. Anyone with half a brain (in baseball terms) knows that America should be knocking the crap out of all the other teams in baseball... save maybe the DR and Japan, where we wouldn't be mopping the floor with them, but would still be beating them soundly in a vacuum. But we're lazy about it because it doesn't matter.
The fact that America dominates softball so much is one of the main speculated reasons that baseball and softball have been removed from the IOC's list of events. By my own argument that America should be winning year in, year out, maybe there shouldn't be a WBC at all...
I really hate this though because nobody knows anything about these other teams and the assumption seems to be "America is duh best". Sure they have one of the best teams in the WBC, but I don't think they have the best team if every nation had every player available to them. The fact that the major leagues has a very large amount of players born in other countries should prove that point enough. Even the All-Star game is comprised of many latin/asian players. Again, I'm not saying America sucks, but the thought that America is far and away the best team is a little funny to me. I thought the idea of the tournament was to show what other nations are all about and that America isn't always top dog.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
Oh, and also, just because a league is better doesn't mean their best 9-10 starters are better. Ichiro came over and was better than most players here so it isn't a stretch to imagine that their best players are on par or better than the best USA players.
Also, my guess is if you took out all players born in other countries from the major leagues and put them back in their respective country, America wouldn't have the best league or at least not by that much. That should further illustrate the point that USA does have very good talent, but not leagues above the rest that they should be winning tournament after tournament.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
5dodgers5
2. Fine teams that don't allow their players to play. Don't fine the player, after all it is his decision, but if the player accepts the invitation and the team doesn't allow them to go, the team should be fined a certain amount. Nothing major, maybe 50,000. That way, teams cannot hold back star players simply because they don't want them to go. At some point the teams have to realize that the nation means more than a team.
If I'm running the team, it is NEVER going to be nation over team, because if something happens to a star player in the WBC that kills my team, guess what...the manager of the WBC team isn't the one about to get fired over it. And from the owner's standpoint, if I'm the one paying this guy, he's playing for ME.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
200tang
I really hate this though because nobody knows anything about these other teams and the assumption seems to be "America is duh best".
I think it's pretty clear, as it's now 2009 and we have a much, much better idea of world baseball than we ever did, that MLB has the best talent, and more importantly, the DEEPEST talent. I really doubt Japanese fringe players would last very long even in American minor leagues.
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Sure they have one of the best teams in the WBC, but I don't think they have the best team if every nation had every player available to them.
Show me a better team on paper.
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The fact that the major leagues has a very large amount of players born in other countries should prove that point enough.
Not really, since the majority of them are Americans, and since the Americans are generally better (if you were to take, say, the top 50 to 100 players in MLB) than any other country, by far.
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Even the All-Star game is comprised of many latin/asian players.
Yet still mostly Americans, even with the population of said Latin/Asian nations far and away overwhelming the population of the United States.
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Again, I'm not saying America sucks, but the thought that America is far and away the best team is a little funny to me. I thought the idea of the tournament was to show what other nations are all about and that America isn't always top dog.
I think it's really hard to argue that any of the other teams in the WBC were better than the American team, on paper. Once again, it's pretty plain to see that America played like junk, didn't field the best team they could have (where all the other countries did, mostly), and didn't take the thing as seriously as certain other teams did.
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Originally Posted by
200tang
Oh, and also, just because a league is better doesn't mean their best 9-10 starters are better. Ichiro came over and was better than most players here so it isn't a stretch to imagine that their best players are on par or better than the best USA players.
I'm not going to claim to be an expert, but from what I understand, the quality of NPB play is something along the lines of just above American AAA, with a fair handful of players who could not only succeed in MLB, but excel. Also, it's worth noting that NPB has a much smaller player pool than MLB does. While I see NPB's top 10, maybe 15 percentile being viable MLB players with a few All Stars, I don't think their 20 and onward percentile being more than bubble guys to make 25 man rosters, if even 40 man rosters in MLB.
This isn't being blindly pro-American, it's just being as honest and realistic as I can be, knowing what I know.
I think it is a stretch to imagine that their players are on par, especially better, considering that Ichiro was their best hitter, and has never been the best hitter in MLB... not even close.
DiceK was one of their top pitchers, but is probably not even a top 15 in America. What could Darvish do? I could see him being a top 5 pitcher in MLB, but I think that'd be a rare instance of a Japanese player being one among the truly best in America.
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Also, my guess is if you took out all players born in other countries from the major leagues and put them back in their respective country, America wouldn't have the best league or at least not by that much. That should further illustrate the point that USA does have very good talent, but not leagues above the rest that they should be winning tournament after tournament.
I really doubt this. Looking at the talent as we can best evaluate it (without just guessing that there's some mysticism in Japanese baseball that puts them at quality level x on account of the benefit of some weird doubt), the talent goes like this:
America
(big gap)
Dominican
(kinda big gap)
Japan, Venezuela
(small gap)
Pamana, Puerto Rico, Canada, Mexico
(kinda big gap)
Curacao, Korea
(big gap)
Everyone else
This is based on looking at the past, say, 20 years in MLB, focusing mainly on the past 10 years. I mean, come on... Japan's cleanup hitter last night is a below average hitter in MLB. I don't want to hear that Japan is right up there with America. They may have won a tournament, but the whole purpose of this post is, America has the superior talent, all things considered, and they screwed up in the tournament.
Not to mention a whole lot of these "Latin American" players are actually from America...
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
I know I am going to get creamed or worse called "Metsguy", but I think its just better if the WBC goes away, I never liked it.
First off, it doesnt have enough publicity to make it worth watching. If you want to make it interesting, show it on a major network instead of ESPN. Thats the main reason it will never be popular. Heck, its so insignificant, you dont even here about who wins the darn thing. Or at least I havent, and I have a couple friends you would call, "Baseball Fanatics." Well maybe they arent because they dont watch the WBC.
The injury factor is a turn off as well. It hasnt happened to anyone notable yet, but just the fact its there for such a meaningless event scares me. I would be pissed off to hear that one of our key players is out the year because of something without so much meaning.
But without trying to be a negative nancy so much, one thing I would find interesting if they so choose, was to maybe have the College World Series champs be the USA team. Its not really that great of an idea I know, but it fits in a way just because of the fact the WBC isnt that highly anticipated.
EDIT: So my way to fix it, is to get rid of it.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Arctic Blast
If I'm running the team, it is NEVER going to be nation over team, because if something happens to a star player in the WBC that kills my team, guess what...the manager of the WBC team isn't the one about to get fired over it. And from the owner's standpoint, if I'm the one paying this guy, he's playing for ME.
My dad made the same argument today, that the almighty dollar will always win over the national flag/banner... I think that's simply ridiculous. The World Baseball Classic should take precedence over a meaningless season once compared to a game played on a national level. Congratulations, you win the World Series! You are the best team in America (and one team in Canada)! Now prove to the REST OF THE WORLD you Americans are truly better at baseball. So far we haven't done that. So far, Cuba, Venezuela, Japan, and Korea are all better at baseball than us Americans. That's just disgraceful. It's that kind of me-first thinking that will ruin our nation and the entire world one day.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by
5dodgers5
My dad made the same argument today, that the almighty dollar will always win over the national flag/banner... I think that's simply ridiculous. The World Baseball Classic should take precedence over a meaningless season once compared to a game played on a national level. Congratulations, you win the World Series! You are the best team in America (and one team in Canada)! Now prove to the REST OF THE WORLD you Americans are truly better at baseball. So far we haven't done that. So far, Cuba, Venezuela, Japan, and Korea are all better at baseball than us Americans. That's just disgraceful. It's that kind of me-first thinking that will ruin our nation and the entire world one day.
Hopefully we wont be alive to see it, but it seems to be happening sooner rather than later. :(
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
Joe12Pack
America
(big gap)
Dominican
(kinda big gap)
Japan, Venezuela
(small gap)
Pamana, Puerto Rico, Canada, Mexico
(kinda big gap)
Curacao, Korea
(big gap)
Everyone else
.
EDIT : How did you even come up with this list? Did you just go count how many major leaguers each team has or something? I'd really like to know.
Uhh? Where the hell is Cuba? 'everyone else' ? That's the thing, a lot of Americans just point out the fact that we have all the big names without doing any real research on any team before they declare themselves the best team. There's a strong possibility they did have the best team this WBC, but the fact that you put such a huge gap over them and basically every team is a little funny. I'd like to hear you name 5 players from the Cuba team off the top of your head and what position they play. My guess is you can't do it.
Also, you keep referring to our league being the best. You fail to understand that it isn't the league you're going up against but the best players from each nation regardless of where they're playing. The Dominican and USA are far closer than you think they are.
1B : Pujols (Best player in the game right now)
2B : Robinson Cano (not as good as Roberts or Utley but still good)
SS : Hanley Ramirez (defense is questionable but everything makes up for it and is the best SS in the game in some minds)
3B : Alex Rodriguez (On decline but still one of the bets)
OF : Nelson Cruz, Willy Taveras, Jose Guillen (Basically average players with some nice skills)
C : I don't know anything about any of them honestly.
Bench/DH : David Ortiz, Jose Reyes, Miguel Tejada, Willy Aybar (You can replace A-Rod with Reyes or Tejada if you want but it's still a great 3B/bench)
I'm not gonna go in depth on pitching but they have some nice talent there. So how is it that America seems to have such a huge gap over them? Even if America had better players in every position I can't imagine them being THAT big.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
ragecage
First off, it doesnt have enough publicity to make it worth watching. If you want to make it interesting, show it on a major network instead of ESPN.
By that argument, if I'm flipping thru the channels on my TV and come across a movie that looks interesting, it's not worth watching if the station didn't hype it enough (however much "enough" might be). And when it comes to sports programming, ESPN is a major network--though I gotta admit that it would help if all the games were on ESPN or at least ESPN2 instead of a bunch of them being on ESPN Deportes.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
dps
By that argument, if I'm flipping thru the channels on my TV and come across a movie that looks interesting, it's not worth watching if the station didn't hype it enough (however much "enough" might be). And when it comes to sports programming, ESPN is a major network--though I gotta admit that it would help if all the games were on ESPN or at least ESPN2 instead of a bunch of them being on ESPN Deportes.
thats if everyone had cable, not everyone has it. If anything why not show it through ABC, I mean that is affiliated with ESPN is it not? Even showing commercials through ABC would help, advertise, hype it up and make it viable is all im saying. Its not happening through the avenue they are taking.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
200tang
EDIT : How did you even come up with this list? Did you just go count how many major leaguers each team has or something? I'd really like to know.
Of course I'm going by major leaguers. Because it's all I know. It's probably all you know too. It's probably all that pretty much anyone here knows. But again, from what I've heard, from what I've read, to the best of my understanding, coming from people who do know, America is superior. MLB is the superior league with the superior talent, and America leads the world in the talent in MLB. The best players come over from other leagues and are no longer among the best players. I already named perfect examples... Ichiro and DiceK came over as probably top-3 hitter/pitcher in NPB, and fall drastically once they hit MLB. Nothing against Ichiro, but he's not as good compared to Americans as he is compared to Japanese. No Japanese are. No Koreans are. No Dominicans are. They're on top of the world in their leagues, they settle down when they come here. It's simply a matter of fact!
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Uhh? Where the hell is Cuba?
Oh no, I forgot one country...
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'everyone else' ? That's the thing, a lot of Americans just point out the fact that we have all the big names without doing any real research on any team before they declare themselves the best team.
I'm not going to sit around doing research on stuff which is practically unresearchable for someone with my resources. The best I can do is go by what is known.
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There's a strong possibility they did have the best team this WBC
Look at the team without trying to play devil's advocate and you can strike the "strong possibility" part out of that statement.
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, but the fact that you put such a huge gap over them and basically every team is a little funny.
Why??
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I'd like to hear you name 5 players from the Cuba team off the top of your head and what position they play. My guess is you can't do it.
My guess is that pretty much nobody, save MLB scouts, could do it. My guess is the little island nation would be producing far, far more defectors to MLB if there were any sort of American-rival talent there on the whole.
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Also, you keep referring to our league being the best. You fail to understand that it isn't the league you're going up against but the best players from each nation regardless of where they're playing.
And it just so happens that MLB has the greatest talent. Try to refute it as you will, but the depth of your argument against it is "You don't know about the other leagues," and a mystical and baseless assumption that there's equivalent talent in other leagues, when most people who ARE experts seem to rate even NPB (the best of the other leagues) as being not much higher than AAA for MLB.
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The Dominican and USA are far closer than you think they are.
Not really, but if you throw in the rest of Latin America, I'll say it's almost a dead heat.
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1B : Pujols (Best player in the game right now)
American.
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2B : Robinson Cano (not as good as Roberts or Utley but still good)
A medium tier 2B.
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SS : Hanley Ramirez (defense is questionable but everything makes up for it and is the best SS in the game in some minds)
Of course. But what about Rollins, Jeter, a bunch of other SS? You can name one Dominican that's at the top at one position, it doesn't mean the Dominican is better than America at that position.
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3B : Alex Rodriguez (On decline but still one of the bets)
American.
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OF : Nelson Cruz, Willy Taveras, Jose Guillen (Basically average players with some nice skills)
This doesn't help the argument that the Dominican is close to America, at all. There's at least 15 or 20 American outfielders that are more talented.
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I'm not gonna go in depth on pitching but they have some nice talent there.
Their pitching is a joke compared to America. Pitching is actually one place where America stands heads and shoulders above the rest of the world, and it's hardly arguable.
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So how is it that America seems to have such a huge gap over them?
Quite easily, if you'd take the time to consider all the American players at all the positions you just listed. Especially pitching.
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Even if America had better players in every position I can't imagine them being THAT big.
When I say "huge gap" I don't mean the Dominicans are a bunch of minor leaguers. Perhaps you misunderstood that.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Joe12Pack
Of course I'm going by major leaguers. Because it's all I know. It's probably all you know too. It's probably all that pretty much anyone here knows. But again, from what I've heard, from what I've read, to the best of my understanding, coming from people who do know, America is superior. MLB is the superior league with the superior talent, and America leads the world in the talent in MLB. The best players come over from other leagues and are no longer among the best players. I already named perfect examples... Ichiro and DiceK came over as probably top-3 hitter/pitcher in NPB, and fall drastically once they hit MLB. Nothing against Ichiro, but he's not as good compared to Americans as he is compared to Japanese. No Japanese are. No Koreans are. No Dominicans are. They're on top of the world in their leagues, they settle down when they come here. It's simply a matter of fact!
Sure they came over to the major leagues and are not considered to be the best anymore, but again the major leagues isn't the American Only Leagues. Take out all players born in other countries and the gap lessens by quite a bit.
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I'm not going to sit around doing research on stuff which is practically unresearchable for someone with my resources. The best I can do is go by what is known.
Which is ignorant.
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My guess is that pretty much nobody, save MLB scouts, could do it. My guess is the little island nation would be producing far, far more defectors to MLB if there were any sort of American-rival talent there on the whole.
Yes, because we all know the only reason players in other countries AREN'T playing here is because they don't have the talent and NOTHING ELSE. No language barrier, no wanting to live in your country you grew up in, NOTHING.:rolleyes:
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And it just so happens that MLB has the greatest talent. Try to refute it as you will, but the depth of your argument against it is "You don't know about the other leagues," and a mystical and baseless assumption that there's equivalent talent in other leagues, when most people who ARE experts seem to rate even NPB (the best of the other leagues) as being not much higher than AAA for MLB.
Again you keep comparing leagues which isn't what the WBC is about, it's the best talent. If you took the best prospects from the minors and put them all in a team I'm guessing they could win their fair share of games at the MLB level because the top talent from the minors is probably decent. Not saying other countries are minor league teams but just illustrating the point it's the best players and not the league.
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American.
American.
Sure they were both born here, but if they're going to play for the DR then I don't get what your point is? If the entire Canadian team was born here and played for the Canadian team then it becomes a moot point.
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This doesn't help the argument that the Dominican is close to America, at all. There's at least 15 or 20 American outfielders that are more talented.
I wasn't aware you can play 15-20 OF's in a game now. If the top 3 American outfielders are better than the top 3 from the Dominican then that's great (without any research and going off the top of my head they probably are), but it isn't a HUGE gap. Again, we're talking about the best on a team, not the nations leagues.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
i'm short on time, so i'll add two comments on what i've read thus far;
1) funny how the WBC needs to be "fixed" and the main question regarding why was wondering why the Americans didn't win. Had they won would this thread have been started?
2) November is a terrible time, and you would see far far less american players in the tourney. The reason the play now primarily is because it replaces part of spring training. In november, you'll be extending their season. I don't believe most would go for it.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
dickay
i'm short on time, so i'll add two comments on what i've read thus far;
1) funny how the WBC needs to be "fixed" and the main question regarding why was wondering why the Americans didn't win. Had they won would this thread have been started?
2) November is a terrible time, and you would see far far less american players in the tourney. The reason the play now primarily is because it replaces part of spring training. In november, you'll be extending their season. I don't believe most would go for it.
:eek:
I agree with Dickay
I don't think the WBC needs fixed. Improved-sure-everything can always be improved.
Though, this is a tough one. The way they are doing it now, is probably the best way.
If the US WANTS to win in the WBC, then they need to find players that will commit to the WBC and get ready to play in the WBC instead of using the WBC to get ready for the major league season.
Since the major league season is what pays them millions of dollars, there might not be a lot of players who want to do that.
