Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
Looking over the rosters previous to the 2009 WBC - while knowing little to nothing about Japan or Korea, other than the fact that MLB is superior to NPB, let alone KBO and Chinese baseball - I felt pretty certain in my own opinion that the American team was clearly superior, and should be the favorite to take it all. The Latin American teams were, of course, loaded with talent, but the American squad was clearly the best overall on paper. Spectacular hitting, very good infield defense, top quality starting pitching, and a tremendous and deep bullpen.
So what happened? It can be written off to the simple notion that anything can happen in one baseball game, but I think it was more than that. I think what we saw in the semifinals and finals is a Japanese team that was fundamentally sound, had very deep pitching in its own right, but also used its pitching staff properly, played top notch defense in the outfield as well as in the infield, and won their games with strategy, speed, attention to the basics, and the desire to win.
The problems have been speculated over on these forums, on TV, in print, by people I discuss baseball with in real life. Here's a few ideas I'd be all in favor of:
1) Consider holding the tournament at a different time of year. I've heard it suggested that July would be a good time, but I think it would make for too long an All Star break, and I also think teams would be wary about giving up players with potential for injury midseason. I think November would be a great time, and would give us another few weeks of exciting baseball after the World Series is over. I don't think this would be catering strictly to America, and would benefit any nation (most of them) that has MLB players on its roster. I've heard that Cuba puts the breaks on its season for the WBC, and that Korea and Japan begin preparations earlier in the season. America is caught with its pants down, in a way. If this thing only happens every 3 to 4 years, why don't we get serious about it, at least?
2) Compensate teams and players for participation, and alleviate their fears of injury. Perhaps the MLB kicks in a luxury tax credit to teams whose players participate... perhaps the MLB pays the players some salary for the time they spend in the tournament, or gives some money to charity in their name.
Another idea that I've come up with (I may not be the only one) is that MLB could purchase insurance for the participating players' contracts. This would probably have to be in lieu of player or team compensation, but could go a long way in making owners less afraid to encourage player participation. Maybe Sabathia and Teixeira take part if this little idea had been in play for 2009. In addition, maybe MLB could provide compensation draft picks, somewhere in the middle-to-high rounds, for teams who are affected by WBC-related injuries, or late round compensation picks for teams based on player performance. This would apply not only to America, but to all countries.
Moreover, make sure (this is for the USA team), that the best players we can get are out there. Bud Selig acknowledged this should be the case... THE DAY AFTER AMERICA LOST TO JAPAN. Too little, too late.
3) Change the management style. Make it clear that this is not an All Star game, and that players aren't there so they can get an AB against a Chinese pitcher, or throw against a few Australian hitters just so they can say they did it. Try to avoid the manager being handcuffed by teams that are conducting their regular business back home. No more of this "Please make sure you stretch Oswalt tonight. He should be throwing 5+ innings at this time" type of nonsense. No more starting Jeter at SS over Rollins just because he's Jeter. In fact, why wasn't Longoria the DH and Rollins the SS in that game? But I digress...
4) For the love of God, look at the success of other teams in international play and adjust. The Koreans and Japanese have been phenomenal with lesser talent because they come prepared and because their teams are serious and play fundamentally sound baseball. Japan's outfield defense made America's outfield defense look pedestrian. Consider dropping players with huge holes in their game (example: Adam Dunn and his defense and lack of tendency for contact) for players who are solid all around (Matt Kemp, Nick Markakis, Nate McLouth). More Mark DeRosa types, fewer Ryan Howard types.
Thoughts?
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
I think that changing the management style is a great idea, but I'm not thinking in terms of the actual decision-making, but rather in the leadership style. Most managers nowdays are tacticians, not leaders.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
Joe12Pack
1) Consider holding the tournament at a different time of year. I've heard it suggested that July would be a good time, but I think it would make for too long an All Star break, and I also think teams would be wary about giving up players with potential for injury midseason. I think November would be a great time, and would give us another few weeks of exciting baseball after the World Series is over. I don't think this would be catering strictly to America, and would benefit any nation (most of them) that has MLB players on its roster. I've heard that Cuba puts the breaks on its season for the WBC, and that Korea and Japan begin preparations earlier in the season. America is caught with its pants down, in a way. If this thing only happens every 3 to 4 years, why don't we get serious about it, at least?
I would think this would be great for America but I would think its a disadvantage to the other teams. Japan and Korea have shorter seasons that end a month or a month and a half earlier. Cuba has a winter season and I'm not sure when theirs start but I'm sure they would be in the same situation the Americans are in now with players not being ready.
And just because one country isn't ready for a tournament and that they are unwilling to get ready early, the whole tournament should not be altered. Americans aren't special and they don't get to change everything so it suits them; just get ready earlier. Japan, Korea and Cuba had real, serious practices before the tournament and were committed to the cause. America just needs to find players that will commit for a month or so of practices and workouts.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
asianinvasion
I would think this would be great for America but I would think its a disadvantage to the other teams. Japan and Korea have shorter seasons that end a month or a month and a half earlier. Cuba has a winter season and I'm not sure when theirs start but I'm sure they would be in the same situation the Americans are in now with players not being ready.
This is why I'm not so sure about locking in November, however...
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And just because one country isn't ready for a tournament and that they are unwilling to get ready early, the whole tournament should not be altered. Americans aren't special and they don't get to change everything so it suits them; just get ready earlier. Japan, Korea and Cuba had real, serious practices before the tournament and were committed to the cause. America just needs to find players that will commit for a month or so of practices and workouts.
While I agree with "Americans aren't special," I have to point out that MLB runs the WBC, and quite frankly, MLB is the crown jewel of baseball worldwide. It's not so much something to do to suit America, but something to do to suit the league with the superior talent. The Latin American countries would also benefit, so would Canada.
For that matter, Japan and Korea aren't special either, so why should the November time frame (inconvenient for their leagues) be completely ruled out?
That said, I'm still firm in my belief that, if the time is unchangeable, team USA really should get on top of things earlier on, and should make sure their players are ready to go. Name the squad, send it to winter ball in a Caribbean league for some exhibitions starting a few weeks prior.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
I think putting it in November would result in even less star players from the majors playing.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
Joe12Pack
For that matter, Japan and Korea aren't special either, so why should the November time frame (inconvenient for their leagues) be completely ruled out?
Well, right now, the only team the current schedule is apparently inconvenient is the USA and maybe the DR to an extent. If the Venezuelans with their mostly Major League club can figure it out, I'm sure the Americans can too.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
asianinvasion
Well, right now, the only team the current schedule is apparently inconvenient is the USA and maybe the DR to an extent. If the Venezuelans with their mostly Major League club can figure it out, I'm sure the Americans can too.
And Canada, and Panama, and the Dutch.
You have to admit that during spring training is kind of an inconvenient time for the league that contains at least 3/4 - and that's a conservative estimate - of the world's premier talent. It just so happens the entire American squad (as well as the majority of the DR squad) is MLB players.
Catering to Japan and Korea with a time frame would be like catering to Australia, New Zealand and South Africa for the Summer Olympics.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
1. Play the games closer together. Rather than a 39 game tournament where each team plays a maximum of 8 games over a 17 day span, do each of the following:
a) The only off days should be between rounds.
b) Get rid of the seeding games. Just have the team with the best record the first seed, second best record the second seed.
c) In the event of a tie due to lack of seeding games, then head-to-head record determines tie break. (Only pertains to round. If Japan and Korea tie in Round 2, the only head-to-head record that matters is the second round game).
That would cut down the length of the tournament from 17 days to 11 days. While I know 6 days isn't a huge difference, it would still make a difference to a lot of major league teams.
2. Fine teams that don't allow their players to play. Don't fine the player, after all it is his decision, but if the player accepts the invitation and the team doesn't allow them to go, the team should be fined a certain amount. Nothing major, maybe 50,000. That way, teams cannot hold back star players simply because they don't want them to go. At some point the teams have to realize that the nation means more than a team.
3. For just the USA, another thing they can do to avoid MLB teams getting upset that their guy doesn't get enough at-bats is to have a real TEAM, and not a group of all-stars playing together. Rather than having Chris Iannetta and Brian McCann platoon, have the backup catcher be Chris Snyder, or Mike Matheny. Players who don't necessarily need major playing time now.
4. When the US puts together this TEAM, make sure its well rounded. Absolutely no players like Adam Dunn unless he's DHing, because his defense was absolutely horrendous. Another problem was we had no right fielder, and were forced to put Adam Dunn out there. Players shouldn't be forced to play out of position; guys like Corey Hart and Brad Hawpe could play instead and provide the boost defensively.
5. Have this team compete the same way the NBA Olympic teams do it. Have them play together over winter. Have them compete in a world tournament or two (providing they don't conflict with the MLB schedule). That way, when it comes time for the tournament that matters, the WBC, the team will know each other much better.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
5dodgers5
1. Play the games closer together. Rather than a 39 game tournament where each team plays a maximum of 8 games over a 17 day span, do each of the following:
a) The only off days should be between rounds.
b) Get rid of the seeding games. Just have the team with the best record the first seed, second best record the second seed.
c) In the event of a tie due to lack of seeding games, then head-to-head record determines tie break. (Only pertains to round. If Japan and Korea tie in Round 2, the only head-to-head record that matters is the second round game).
That would cut down the length of the tournament from 17 days to 11 days. While I know 6 days isn't a huge difference, it would still make a difference to a lot of major league teams.
GREAT ideas, and this is something I totally overlooked. The games are spread out too much, and tied in with your 5th idea, this makes a lot of sense. Condense the tournament, play 4 games in 5 days. The seeding games are stupid and pointless... since there's no actual home field, just flip a coin to seed, or allow the 2-0 team to get the top seed over the 2-1 team.
6 days is a massive difference... that cuts the time of this thing by over 1/3.
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2. Fine teams that don't allow their players to play. Don't fine the player, after all it is his decision, but if the player accepts the invitation and the team doesn't allow them to go, the team should be fined a certain amount. Nothing major, maybe 50,000. That way, teams cannot hold back star players simply because they don't want them to go. At some point the teams have to realize that the nation means more than a team.
I'd prefer giving compensation (in the form of insured salaries and draft picks... although this idea is expensive and screws with the draft a bit) over fining teams, especially if it's a minor fine. I understand why the Yankees - who put up huge sums of money to get great players in the Bronx - don't want to put their players on the line. The Yankees would absolutely accept a $50,000 penalty, so I'm not sure a small fine idea works. Just compensate teams, and alleviate their fears for injury.
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3. For just the USA, another thing they can do to avoid MLB teams getting upset that their guy doesn't get enough at-bats is to have a real TEAM, and not a group of all-stars playing together. Rather than having Chris Iannetta and Brian McCann platoon, have the backup catcher be Chris Snyder, or Mike Matheny. Players who don't necessarily need major playing time now.
4. When the US puts together this TEAM, make sure its well rounded. Absolutely no players like Adam Dunn unless he's DHing, because his defense was absolutely horrendous. Another problem was we had no right fielder, and were forced to put Adam Dunn out there. Players shouldn't be forced to play out of position; guys like Corey Hart and Brad Hawpe could play instead and provide the boost defensively.
I love these ideas too, and though I hate to say it, I agree 100% with what Steve Phillips has said. Put some role player/utility type guys on the bench. Have a pinch hitting slugger (Matt Stairs) and a guy who can play all over (Willie Blomquist) around, instead of having 7 starting, top tier quality infielders and 5 or 6 30+ HR outfielders on the team. Make Team USA a TEAM. You can still load it as if it were an All Star team, but insert a couple of guys who make sense for a team. Adam Dunn was a complete joke in this tourney, and had no business dragging his ass around in RF while the Japanese were slapping singles and doubles here and there. With the way they play the game, I wouldn't be surprised if their game plan was actually to hit it his way, much like a football team can pick on an unexperienced, subpar cornerback by throwing in his direction.
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5. Have this team compete the same way the NBA Olympic teams do it. Have them play together over winter. Have them compete in a world tournament or two (providing they don't conflict with the MLB schedule). That way, when it comes time for the tournament that matters, the WBC, the team will know each other much better.
Another great idea, and I mentioned something similar. A few games in a Latin American winter league would get everyone prepared as if they had played their first week or two of ST games.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
Joe12Pack
top quality starting pitching,
What pitching staff were you looking at? After Oswalt/Peavy it was mediocre with Lily and Guthrie.
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1) Consider holding the tournament at a different time of year.
I'd like to see it after the playoffs. I've heard people talking about that would give an unfair advantage to the ones in the playoffs and my response to that would be just have exhibition games 2 or 3times a week for the other teams to keep them somewhat 'fresh'.
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2) Compensate teams and players for participation, and alleviate their fears of injury. Perhaps the MLB kicks in a luxury tax credit to teams whose players participate... perhaps the MLB pays the players some salary for the time they spend in the tournament, or gives some money to charity in their name.
I'm sort of mixed about this. I don't think the World Cup does any of this and if not I don't think baseball should either.
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Another idea that I've come up with (I may not be the only one) is that MLB could purchase insurance for the participating players' contracts. This would probably have to be in lieu of player or team compensation, but could go a long way in making owners less afraid to encourage player participation. In addition, maybe MLB could provide compensation draft picks, somewhere in the middle-to-high rounds, for teams who are affected by WBC-related injuries, or late round compensation picks for teams based on player performance. This would apply not only to America, but to all countries.
If there's some sort of insurance that the players would possibly lose some salary then I'd also like to see bonuses for a WBC selection. That would also help players decide to play in the WBC when the time came around. Not sure about the compensation though, I wouldn't be opposed to it though.
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3) Change the management style. Make it clear that this is not an All Star game, and that players aren't there so they can get an AB against a Chinese pitcher, or throw against a few Australian hitters just so they can say they did it. Try to avoid the manager being handcuffed by teams that are conducting their regular business back home. No more of this "Please make sure you stretch Oswalt tonight. He should be throwing 5+ innings at this time" type of nonsense. No more starting Jeter at SS over Rollins just because he's Jeter. In fact, why wasn't Longoria the DH and Rollins the SS in that game? But I digress...
Yeah it seemed like the USA was trying to use EVERY PLAYER and get them AB's. If you're not gonna play correctly then why bother?
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4) For the love of God, look at the success of other teams in international play and adjust. The Koreans and Japanese have been phenomenal with lesser talent because they come prepared and because their teams are serious and play fundamentally sound baseball. Japan's outfield defense made America's outfield defense look pedestrian. Consider dropping players with huge holes in their game (example: Adam Dunn and his defense and lack of tendency for contact) for players who are solid all around (Matt Kemp, Nick Markakis, Nate McLouth). More Mark DeRosa types, fewer Ryan Howard types.
I think a lot of that had to do with who wanted to play. The fact that Derek Jeter was getting starts over Jimmy Rollins was far worse then letting Adam Dunn play.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
After deliberating with my dad who also wants to see change in the WBC, here's what we came up with. We'll be following Pool A, but know that Pools B, C, and D are doing the same things on the same days. (The teams are just placeholders). Double elimination format
Day 1- Japan vs. Korea, China vs. Chinese Taipei
Day 2- Winner (Japan) vs. Winner (China), Loser (Korea) vs. Loser (Taipei)
Day 3- Winner of Game 1 (Japan) off day. Loser of Game 1 (China) vs. Winner of Game 2 (Korea). Loser of Game 2 (Taipei) goes home.
Day 4- Travel/Off Day
Day 5- Japan vs. Venezuela. Korea vs. Cuba
Day 6- (Winner) Japan vs. (Winner) Cuba. Venezuela vs. Korea
Day 7- (Loser) Cuba vs. (Winner) Korea. Venezuela goes home, Japan gets off day.
Day 8- Travel/Off Day
Day 9- Semifinals: Japan vs. Dominican Republic. USA vs. Cuba
Day 10- Off day
Day 11- USA vs. Japan. Finals.
11 days, with numerous off days. No team will play more than three days in a row, some teams will play two days and then get days off (if they win both of their games).
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
200tang
What pitching staff were you looking at? After Oswalt/Peavy it was mediocre with Lily and Guthrie.
In this tournament, you don't need much more than a 1-2. Besides, look at Korea's (the team that finished 2nd) pitching staff. One MLB failure and a bunch of other guys.
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I'm sort of mixed about this. I don't think the World Cup does any of this and if not I don't think baseball should either.
Comparing the World Cup to the WBC is like comparing... well, I can't even think of a proper comparison. They're worlds apart. The World Cup is something that ALL nations and ALL football clubs are prepared for because of the history and the prevalence of the event. The WBC is still looked at as an afterthought, and international baseball is somewhere between dying out and growing. Consider that it was removed from the Olympics recently, and the reluctance of professional athletes to consider showing up for international competition.
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I think a lot of that had to do with who wanted to play. The fact that Derek Jeter was getting starts over Jimmy Rollins was far worse then letting Adam Dunn play.
I think the Adam Dunn debacle was the biggest pock on Team USA. The Japanese won with quick-footed and quick-handed great-fielding outfielders that could move a runner over with a 2-1 count and slide at bloop hits and bullet them into second base in one fluid motion. If we're talking 162 games, give me Adam Dunn. If we're talking one very close game where pitching and defense have to be superb, and where we're playing against teams whose cleanup hitters are no more powerful than a Matt Kemp or a Nick Markakis, give me the Kemp/Markakis, leave Dunn at home.
But yeah, this "team leader has gotta be in the infield captaining things and grinding it out and blah blah blah" thing with Jeter is also a huge joke.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by
5dodgers5
After deliberating with my dad who also wants to see change in the WBC, here's what we came up with. We'll be following Pool A, but know that Pools B, C, and D are doing the same things on the same days. (The teams are just placeholders). Double elimination format
Day 1- Japan vs. Korea, China vs. Chinese Taipei
Day 2- Winner (Japan) vs. Winner (China), Loser (Korea) vs. Loser (Taipei)
Day 3- Winner of Game 1 (Japan) off day. Loser of Game 1 (China) vs. Winner of Game 2 (Korea). Loser of Game 2 (Taipei) goes home.
Day 4- Travel/Off Day
Day 5- Japan vs. Venezuela. Korea vs. Cuba
Day 6- (Winner) Japan vs. (Winner) Cuba. Venezuela vs. Korea
Day 7- (Loser) Cuba vs. (Winner) Korea. Venezuela goes home, Japan gets off day.
Day 8- Travel/Off Day
Day 9- Semifinals: Japan vs. Dominican Republic. USA vs. Cuba
Day 10- Off day
Day 11- USA vs. Japan. Finals.
11 days, with numerous off days. No team will play more than three days in a row, some teams will play two days and then get days off (if they win both of their games).
If the asian teams play in asia, they would have to start early. One day rest for a cross-pacific trip is not enough. I don't see a need for an offday before the finals. The quickers its over the better.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
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Originally Posted by
gosensgo101
If the asian teams play in asia, they would have to start early. One day rest for a cross-pacific trip is not enough. I don't see a need for an offday before the finals. The quickers its over the better.
There should probably be no Asia games. Just get everyone together in the same country from the start.
Re: Fixing America's WBC approach for 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Joe12Pack
In this tournament, you don't need much more than a 1-2. Besides, look at Korea's (the team that finished 2nd) pitching staff. One MLB failure and a bunch of other guys.
True, but the 'powerhouse' nations had better pitching staffs in my mind than the USA. If any team had pitching to gain from players who didn't participate it would've been Venezuela with Johan Santana and Carlos Zambrano. That would've been a sick 1-2-3 with Felix.
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Comparing the World Cup to the WBC is like comparing... well, I can't even think of a proper comparison. They're worlds apart. The World Cup is something that ALL nations and ALL football clubs are prepared for because of the history and the prevalence of the event. The WBC is still looked at as an afterthought, and international baseball is somewhere between dying out and growing. Consider that it was removed from the Olympics recently, and the reluctance of professional athletes to consider showing up for international competition.
I knew I'd get this comparison but I dont know....it seems like that's what they're aiming for so I thought I would use it as an example. I'm not saying I would be opposed to giving baseball teams taxes or something for compensation, but I just don't get why it's needed. If one sport can do it why not baseball?
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IMatt Kemp or a Nick Markakis, give me the Kemp/Markakis, leave Dunn at home.
Even in a 162 game season I'd take those guys over Dunn. Did they ask those guys to play though?
