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People have criticized the over-priced free agent signings (Drew, Lugo), but I never see anyone pick on the Beckett trade. I realize the Beckett went 4-0 in the 2007 post-season. But he was horrible in the 2008 post-season.
And the Red Sox traded Hanley Ramirez, an MVP candidate (with a modest salary) to get Beckett. At this point, I'd rather still have Hanley, even though Beckett has indeed lived up to expectations.
Thoughts?
Fair enough, but I'm not so sure they bring home the World Championship in 2007 without him, though, Clay...
I'll take a WS now for a future MVP.....heck I'd take a WS now for a future HOF'er. Hanley looks to be great, but might blow his knee out tuesday.
We also got Mike Lowell...
Oof. That's right. Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
Shame on me for not thinking of it. :)
It is hard to argue against success. He made the right moves to win at the time and brought the Championship to Boston. In order to do that you may have to sacrifice a quality prospect like Hanley. But I am sure it hurts now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Dreslough
Also, it is not like Beckett is ancient or washed up, he is a great starter
Anytime you win the ALCS in 7 games you can make the argument that you would have lost that series without any single one of your key players, especially the guy who won two games.
But Lugo went 5-for-25 in that series. And Jed Lowrie went 3-for-18 in the 2008 ALCS.
Without Beckett, their chances of winning in 2007 probably go down. Although who knows what pitchers we could have signed if we'd combined the Beckett and Lugo money into one big pile.
You can't base a good signing or trade solely off of the post season....Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Dreslough
For what it's worth, Theo didn't make the Beckett trade. That trade was made after he resigned while Cherington and Hoyer were sharing the GM title.
He's made some bad signings and trades, but he's drafted excellently. I think he's a great GM.
Exactly. There have been plenty worse. Remember LAD and Schmidt/Jones, or NYY and Pavano, or SFG and Rowand and Zito....Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
Agreed. But the post-season is the only argument that you can make that Beckett has been more valuable than Hanley Ramirez. In the regular season, Beckett has been inconsistent and Hanley has been the next coming of Nomar (but with much more speed).Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
2007 was great for Beckett, 2008 was actually not as bad as most think. AND your forgetting a certain Mike Lowell. Yes, Boston also traded Anibal Sanchez, but he has become a medical nightmare. I am not saying Beckett is better then Hanley, but look at the deal from all sides.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Dreslough
Including the side where Theo didn't orchestrate the deal at all, because he wasn't GM at the time!Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
The Beckett - Hanley trade is moot when discussing Theo's record as a GM because Cherington and Hoyer were the GM's at the time, and IIRC a lot of people thought it was Lucchino pulling the strings on that deal to make people forget about Theo as a GM.
Yes I know. But he is claiming it was a bad deal, so I am discussing the deal, not TheoQuote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
Theo's one of the better GM's in the league.
Pretty tough to say exactly how good of a GM he is..b/c sure, they've been successful..but they also have near unlimited resources (slight exaggeration) I mean...give a lot of the low-market teams an extra 100 million dollars per season to spend on FAs and a lot of those GMs will suddenly look a whole lot smarter as well. (Though not all of them).
That being said..there's no way you can argue he's a bad GM..I'd say at worst he's a decent one..at best he's one of the top in the game. Making the distinction between decent and great..probably can't really say for certain.
Yep. He can spell Sabremetrics. That makes him in the top-5.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Unfortunately, you can't ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
*Sabermentrics :oQuote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Lmao.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
That's my stance when it comes to evaluating general managers. How would Brian Cashman or Theo Epstein perform as the GM of the Pittsburgh Pirates, for example, or a team with limited financial resources? All you can really go on is looking back to see how their trades or free agent signings turned out.Quote:
Originally Posted by KowboyKoop
Speaking of Pittsburgh, I actually like their GM.He has made some decent moves, with the limited financial situation. As for an example of a low budget great GM, look no further then the great Billy BeaneQuote:
Originally Posted by BINGLEBOP
Exactly... some people will point to the zero World Series that the team has won (or been in), but getting a team to the postseason is really all they can do since it's anybody's ballgame from that point on.
I think Theo would do well with a low-budget team. He has a great history in the draft, so he should be able to put together a good team that way in a few years. Cashman, I'm not so sure, we've never really seen much of the Yankees farm in action like we have with the Red Sox.Quote:
Originally Posted by BINGLEBOP
Cashman is a big question mark, he has never really had free reign, with his dictatorous owners. I think he would do ok. he has made a few draft picks of great potential, just not had the space to use them, or had them healthy enoughQuote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
I agree on Theo.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
I also don't think a GM can be judged by just one trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Dreslough
Ehem, read Yeah Daaawg's post before he makes it again ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
Ya, Theo is a good GM probably in the top 5 in the league
No, it just wasn't clear what you were debating when I made it.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
I've never been able to understand (and maybe it's just an incorrect perception on my part) how their system can be so good at evaluating rookie and prospect talent, which can be so murky, and yet seemingly miss so badly on major leaguers (Renteria, Lugo, Gagne, in particular) who have a much more "reliable" body of work to go on.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
(Sorry for the run-on sentence) ;)
Yeah I pretty much screwed the pooch with this thread, starting it with an example from when Theo wasn't even in charge. And I should know better, I've actually met Jed Hoyer...
FAIL:D:p:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Clay Dreslough
There's also a lot of examples of them making good decisions at the major league level. David Ortiz, Bill Mueller, etc. Every team is going to have their fair share of poor MLB moves.Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetMedic
Yeah, that's fair, HGM. That's why I prefaced with the disclaimer of "incorrect perception on my part." One of the reasons I love this forum is the relentless competence of other members when it comes to "keeping you honest". :)Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Cashman has basically had a free reign since 2006... And since then, we've had some very solid/good prospects to pop up (Joba, Cano, Hughes, Kennedy, Brackman, Betances, Melancon, Melky, Tabata, Jackson, Montero, Romine, etc...)Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
How about limiting it to guys who have actually proven themselves at the major league level? That would cut it down to Joba, Cano, and Melky. Hughes and Kennedy have been in the majors, but neither have performed consistently at a major league level while in the majors, so that's why I elected to leave them off. That's not to say the others are crap or won't pan out, because they very well could, simply that they are still exactly what you described them as - "prospects" - nothing more, nothing less.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Rent-a-wreck performed exactly as he did in the year before they got him, so I don't know what Boston thought they were getting. He may have done better if they kept him but he WANTED OUT and they let him.Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetMedic
I don't know what they were thinking on Lugo.
Between not getting steroids anymore and Texas riding him like a mule before they traded him, Gagne didn't surprise me a bit.
mlbtraderumors.com is doing a review of each GM. Here's the link to Theo. There's an excel file you have to DL but it lists each trade and free agent signing the GM has made.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2008/0...de-hist-1.html