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Re-read my earlier post. It was meant to imply that it's possible that the negative press Bonds generally received prior to the steroid controversy was just plain, factual reporting, without any intent by the media to tear Bonds down.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
The Braves have a DH? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
unless you're not responding to my post then nevermind :)
I actually got confused and thought you were talking about the Mariners. :p Nevermind!Quote:
Originally Posted by 200tang
ok thats what I thought, I was thinking "ummm I posted in my first post that he should be platooned at DH and see only right handed pitchers"Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I can't figure out why Atlanta would be going after him. I thought their outfield was pretty well set.
It's not...at all...they literally have no good outfielders.Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelg123789
Seattle needs Griffey. He is the franchise name. Even if he DHs every other game, he will put thousands more asses in the seats in one of the coolest stadiums in MLB. He should never have left but that is off topic.
That seems to be why everyone says Seattle should sign Griffey, but I personally don't believe this will be the case. If they bring Griffey in and the team stink then I'm guessing the first month will possibly have a higher attendance but after that it will plummet slowly.Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshopper
A winning team brings in much more fans than a Griffey past his prime. At least that's my opinion.
Lots of teams have done it over the years starting with the Babe in NY. It does work. Just a few million dollars more can mean alot in the future.Quote:
winning team brings in much more fans than a Griffey past his prime. At least that's my opinion
PS Seattle needs it bad considering how much they are paying for crap.
True, but Babe and Griffey aren't really comparable. Edgar Martinez and Brett Boone were both beloved by Seattle and there wasn't a spike in attendance when they played their final years. Edgar is probably more liked around here than Griffey too. On top of that Griffey projects to be at best pretty good versus righties and at worse...well...lets not go there. People still remember Griffey around here as an MVP caliber player and watching him the way he is now may DRIVE people away. Here are some examples to check out that are close to what is happening if Griffey comes back.Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshopper
1972-3 Mays with Mets. Return to New York, where he was a star as a kid, only of course it was to a different franchise. Mid-year trade in 1972, which was a strike year. In 1973, the Mets won the pennant but that was the year no one wanted to win the NL East, so there wasn’t the attendance jump you’d get from saying “hey, let’s go out to see the Mets win.”
1975 - 1976 Aaron with Brewers. A different franchise (even different league here), but same city where he came up. No pennant distractions. He was already the all-time home run king. And he was just a DH. And he was basically totally washed up. Probably the best analogy.
Harold Baines in his second and third times with the White Sox. Baines was considered hugely popular in Chicago. He came back to the White Sox twice after they had already retired his number, in 1996-97 and in 2000-01. He had something left the first time and nothing in the tank the last time. The first time back is thus a bit less relevant as an analogy; the second has a lot of fuzziness to it: he came back mid-season, the White Sox had the best record in baseball and he hardly played.
Attendance
Mets 1971 27,984 per game
Mets 1972 27,361 per game
Mets 1973 23,756 per game
Brewers 1974 11,799 per game
Brewers 1975 14,980 per game
Brewers 1976 12,496 per game
White Sox 1995 22,204 per game
White Sox 1996 20,569 per game
White Sox 1997 23,165 per game
White Sox 1999 16,656 per game
White Sox 2000 24,047 per game
White Sox 2001 22,077 per game
The only really visible bump is the 3000 per game the Brewers picked up in 1975. The team actually regressed from 76 to 68 wins in 1975, but picked up attendance. But remember that comparing baseball attendance in the 1970’s and today is apples and oranges: no fanzones, no jumbotrons, maybe an organ between innings, tickets probably like five bucks. And the M’s are confronting economic times unlike anything we’ve seen in our lifetimes. Also on top of that is the fact that Griffey means less to Seattle than Hank Aaron did to Milwaukee.
If attendance did jump during a losing season that would be awesome, but the way I look at it with our economy I just can't see Griffey realistically putting more people in the stadium. Who knows though anything can happen and we're still not even sure if Griffey is going to play here.
Ok, point taken. Stat Geek:D
Still, I remember seeing Griffey and ARod at the time play against Boston at home in what was at the time the new stadium. It was electric. Full house. Seattle fans were everywhere and talking big.
I went to a Mariners game last year and it was against the Angels. I got so depressed from the maybe 20,000 indifferent fans that I went out back to watch the trains attach/detach from each other in yonder rail yard.
I know that you are fan. I know you have lots of buddies who are fans. Problem is when a city doesnt care about their team anymore, they kind of give up hope and move to Oklahoma. Woops, that did happen.
I think Griffey is what the Dr. ordered just for publicity.
a low blow :pQuote:
Originally Posted by grasshopper;1254402I
I don't know though about Griffey, I would REALLY like to see a trade for Kearns, Johnson, Swisher, Scott, or possibly Ankiel if they were to get a new second basemen.
I would love to see a Kearns + for Washburn. I'm pretty sure Luke Scott and Nick Johnson could both be gotten pretty easily although we wouldn't be able to dump Washburn's contract in either of those cases. Nick Swisher and Rick Ankiel I think would have higher prices so I just don't think those are going to happen :(
Problem with the Ms as you already know is that they extended huge salaries to mediocre players during the super duper financial years (2004-2007). Blame the old GM but Jack Zduriencik has something to prove. Remember, they gave Ichiro, a lead-off hitter, slugger money. Anyway, its gonna take at least one more year to starrt cleaning the slate and getting rid of the garbage.
I think for now, maybe a trade for Kearns would be worth it. Swisher has a new contract at an average of 7M a year. The Yanks signed him for 1B pre Teixiera. Now he is fodder. Also, in my book, he has never proven himself worth 7M offensively or defensively. Nick Johnson is way overrated. Even the Yankees knew that. Finally Scott who I cant really form an opinion on but would never build my future on.
Meantime, Mariners should be trying to grab loads of talent for AAA and AA, mainly pitching. Just accept another losing season for 1 more year. Arent they going to unload a huge amount of salary in 2010? Plus they should be signing in 2010 their young infielders.
Meantime, I think they can grab Griffey super cheap just for 1 year fill in and getting asses in the seats. Also, I think KGJr would love to finish up where it began.
If the new GM is solid, they should be back by 2011.
Ok, sorry about the cheap shot. Its not everyday you can taunt a team for moving to Oklahoma.
I'm glad you agree with me on Kearns. People forget he was actually a pretty good ball player in 07 and 06 when you factor everything. I think last year he struggled because of his injury. At worst Kearns is a good defensive backup who can pinch hit on the odd occasion.
I'm going to have to disagree with you on Ichiro's salary though. I will admit that 17 million is a lot for a leadoff player, but at the same time Ichiro has proven that he's worth it and compared to guys like Washburn, Silva and Johjima his contract is much better.
According to fangraphs Ichiro was worth 17.5 million last year and that was one of his worst years so far. Ichiro is one of the best players of our generation today. He plays right field very well, is basically guaranteed 180+ hits, and most importantly he's one of the best base runners in baseball right now, and not just stealing bases. I was looking through Bill James 2009 Handbook at the store the other day and was reading the base running page and he basically developed a system of measuring base running after factoring in stolen base success and how often they go from first to third, second to home, etc... compared to league average. There was only one player better than Ichiro who I don't remember.
Going off the top of my head the only people I can think of are Beltre and Washburn. I would be sad to see Beltre go though. He's another player who's severely undervalued by casual fans. If he hadn't have had that career year he would have been much more liked I think; everyone was expecting him to produce another season like 2004 when he came over which wasn't fair. If we could re-sign Beltre to a 3 year deal for around the same price I would sign it.Quote:
Arent they going to unload a huge amount of salary in 2010? Plus they should be signing in 2010 their young infielders.
Willy Taveras, and Matt Holliday and Grady Sizemore were right behind Ichiro. Ichiro is worth his contract, right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by 200tang
You wanna point to a terrible contract from the Mariners...there's plenty of other options...Carlos Silva, Kenji Johjima, etc.
Yeah the contract years on Ichiro's contract is what will break the deal, but in there defense if you're going to sign a player through his 35+ years then Ichiro is the correct player. Speedy guys generally age very well and he also has no significant injury history. Signing a guy to a long contract in his age 35+ season is never very smart though.
I see Griffey as being welcomed in Seattle, and he could basically do no wrong there, even if he had a bad year, they would welcome him with open arms. If he signed a one year deal and he basically did nothing, then essentially his career is basically over. Which would be sad, bc then it was like he went to Seattle to die like a dog goes to a ditch to die. If he signs elsewhere like Atlanta and has another similar season to what he did this year, then Atlanta is happy and he is just doing what Maddux did, jumping around a few places to finish his career wherever he is needed the most.
He won't put up 1997 numbers again, or likely won't. If he did, wow. amazing, but a spike in attendace will only happen for April basically. a few dad's taking their kids to see their fav player from when they were younger...outside of that. I don't see this as necessary for Griffey. But then again, I don't think he should have ever left.
If Seattle signed him to a one year deal and he put up numbers similiar to 08, my question is, would Seattle resign him?
I sort of doubt it. It all depends on the younger players and how they've progressed and who else is on the market though. If we sign or trade for a better DH, which shouldn't be too difficult, then I see no reason to keep a 40 year old Griffey, who can't play defense, on the bench.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
If Griffey signs with the Braves, then there goes his chance to retire as a fan favorite. This is his only chance to come back since he was traded to Cinci. From what I saw on Q13 this morning, he totally was rude to the reporter and seems he doesn't want to come back, I guess that whole thing the Mariners did for Griffey was a sham. I would be pretty upset if Griffey doesn't come back to Retire as a Mariner, he once said
"I owe it to the fans to retire as a Mariner".
Are you surprised boomboom? I love Griffey as much as the next Seattle fan, but looking at the way he left us in the first place this doesn't surprise me at all.
If you remember he waived his no trade clause for only 4 teams the first time, all were in 1st or 2nd place in the NL. Then he later changed it to only Cinci and played the 'family card' and basically forced us in to a trade where we realistically had no leverage. Mike Cameron turned out okay sure, but lets be honest that trade and the whole way it unraveled wasn't pretty.
I never understood why people got upset for A-Rod leaving for a TON of money, but when Griffey forces us to trade him everyone is cool about it. He was a prima donna then and he's a prima donna now in my eyes.
At least when Griffey left and we got something in return, that is why.
I was ESTATIC to hear back when he was traded that he wanted at 1 point to go to 1 of 2 teams... The Reds or the Braves... I was devistated when he went to the Reds then resigned there. Obviously at this point I'm glad that happened but boy... I collected every card I could find of that guy, when I was a kid. I think I have over 300-400 different cards of him. Even if he stinks now... if he becomes a Brave... I will buy EVERY card he apears in our uniform
This is an insult to Michael Garciaparra and Rene Rivera.Quote:
Originally Posted by boomboom
What I don't understand is all this talk of Griffey DHing. The guy is still decent enough in the field to play RF, or at worst LF. With Ichiro in RF it seems to me that there isn't much room for a guy like Griffey.
If I'm Griffey I'm looking for a team where I can play in the outfield atleast vs righties.
He doesn't stink! He is still a great player that can hit 15-20 home runs and play solid defense! He's in decline, but he's still good.
If you're Griffey, sure, you'd look for that. If you're a team, you keep him out of the field. He is no longer even an average defender.Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
He's good if you allow him to ONLY do the one thing he's good at - hit righties.Quote:
Originally Posted by eggson27
At this point I would say he is a below average CF, an average RF or LF. His arm isn't a canon, so players will test it, but he can still throw people out, and while his wheels aren't what they used to be, he can still get to most balls. I'd see no problem with him playing RF or LF. I don't know what Chicago was thinking getting him to play CF last year though. That was a bit of a head scratcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Ultimate Zone Rating has him at -11.6 runs in RF in 2008 and an atrocious -30.4 in 2007. In center field, he was -24 runs in 2006, -19.9 in 2005 and -21.6 in 2004. His overall UZR's for the last 7 years:Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfanar
2008: -13.4
2007: -30.4
2006: -24
2005: -19.9
2004: -21.6
2003: -2.7
2002: -4.7
THT's Revised Zone Rating, BP's Fielding Runs, AND Plus/Minus all agree with UZR that he has been terrible in the field for a while now. (+/- has Griffey at -25 plays at BOTH RF and CF over the 2006-2008 period).
Yeah the guy can't play OF at all. Griffey will definitely look to play the OF over DH which could be the deciding factor, but he really has no business playing there. The thing you have to realize is, no matter how good his offense is in this final season, if he does play in the OF his defense will negate quite a large portion of it.
No he isnt!!!
NOT SO FASTQuote:
Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/0...ey-agrees.html
I stick with my earlier statement that Griffey would finish a great career going back to Seattle. Prima donna or not, when free agency occured, Seattle didnt stick their necks out to keep him. Same with ARod and Randy Johnson. Please dont cry poverty cause they had that new stadium and fans who were starting to get into it. Like prev. discussed, they gave huge money to Ichiro because they finally caught on to the fact that keeping superstars costs money.
We never had the chance to resign Griffey before this offseason. He demanded that trade in 2000. This is the first time he has been a free agent. He should be coming back to Seattle.Quote:
Originally Posted by grasshopper
As for A-rod, he didn't want to talk about this contract in 2000 until after he became a free agent.. ala Borris for you.