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That was like reading an article from the Onion. You can't just erase it from the record books. It happened, it has effected baseball. but what, are you going to act like Bonds' career never happened? change all pitcher's numbers that faced him? take away the fielding numbers players had? take away the honors won? Are they going to act like these players never existed? IMO this is absurd.
you can't punish someone for something that carried no disciplinary action when the crime was done.
It was against the law. Murder isn't expressly forbidden by MLB rules but I'd think a player could be suspended for that
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Furthermore, as Barry Bonds approaches a March 2 trial date on charges of lying to a federal grand jury about performance-enhancing drugs, Selig added he was considering the reinstatement of Henry Aaron as the rightful home run king in the official record books.
This I agree with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
This I don't. In no way am I saying they should punish him, but there are "conduct" clauses in the contracts that encompass more than simple everyday baseball rules.Quote:
you can't punish someone for something that carried no disciplinary action when the crime was done.
Might as well just purge everybody's name from the past 40ish years from any records :-\
And I don't get why they're suspending him for not breaking any rules. If they do really suspend A-Rod for a year or make Aaron the 'official' home run king then I personally feel like they totally handled the whole performance enhancer thing wrong.
I truly hope Selig isn't considering something this stupid. And if so...ARODs MVP needs to go, and the 2000 Yankee title for starters.Quote:
Furthermore, as Barry Bonds approaches a March 2 trial date on charges of lying to a federal grand jury about performance-enhancing drugs, Selig added he was considering the reinstatement of Henry Aaron as the rightful home run king in the official record books.
well then in respect to dickay and fili: what do you think about the idea of erasing Bond's as the home run king?
Personally....that is just ridiculous. While we are at it, let's reinstate Maris as the home run king :rolleyes:
He wasn't a Yankee is 2000Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
A suspension of A-Rod would really make me lose some faith here. The guy came out and admitted to doing some GNC products that could have stated he was positive. The drugs in question didn't make him bigger, in fact if anything, just more lean....and there can't be any proof that says this lead to him hitting home runs.
As tang said: if you do this, you might as well just erase the last 40 years from the books.
This article seems slightly slanted. Apparently all Selig really said was, "He hasn't ruled out punishment yet."
Well as long as he gets the same punishment as Jason Giambi.....Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
Are they going to take away the Mets championship too then? Strike down every record Strawberry and company held? Suspend Howard Johnson?Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
Ken Caminiti needs to be suspended too....I mean he may have passed away, but let's suspend him for good measure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavelb1
I feel that steroid players should be punished somehow, but it's almost impossible at this point. Bonds is obviously tainted in my eyes, and his HR number being at the top sucks...and should have the *. But to punish A-Rod now seems almost whimsical - 6 years after, with the report illegally released...what about all the others who have already retired??
A-Rod will get a hit from fans, and lose sponsorship/advertising income. And it will be headache for him the rest of his career. Seems fine (actually, seems light on those who did and remain silent). Selig can't do anything when the league kept letting it go for what, 20 years? At least?? Just keep things clean and strict in every possible way from here on out.
I did like Oswalt's take, saying that an A-Rod homer from '03 could have cost him a game, cost him money in incentives, cost his team wins and playoff spots. Oswalt was outspoken in how much someone cheating the game could potentially affect others. I don't agree that you can wipe everything A-Rod's done from the books, but it's good to know some players out there feel slighted at these types of things, and they're not all in on the act.
I ****ing hate Selig. Idiot, what is done is done, you can not change it. I am not saying what A-Rod and Barry did was right-it was very wrong, but it has happened. You can't change the past.....
didn't A-Rod speak out against steroids? At least once? Not saying Oswalt did anything, but with the whole era just saying you didn't do anything doesn't mean much to me anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
And about feeling slighted, there still isn't any real proof about what these things are doing for the players, although that is a whole other topic I really don't feel like getting in to since I don't know a ton about it.
This is ridiculous. I was hoping some sort of amnesty thing came out of this and with a list out there, I was hoping some players would voluntarily come out.
Now with the threat of retroactive suspensions and RECORD-CHANGING??
Not in a million years and if that list does come out, expect every player to find some GNC product that might cause a false positive back then and claim that's what set it off....as they hire a dozen lawyers.
I was at work the other day when this all broke. The bar tv was set to ESPN and my first thought was 'the ramifications of this will be staggering'. But I had no idea this was the direction things would turn.
Don't worry. Not knowing a lot about it hasn't stopped others from making judgements.Quote:
Originally Posted by 200tang
Jump right in!! The waters cold.
LOL, anybody believing Hank Aaron never took amphetimines when pretty much every other ball player did might as well believe in the tooth fairy too. So, let's see, that rules out Aaron, Mays, Robinson, and Mantle never seemed to see a drug he didn't like......Quote:
Furthermore, as Barry Bonds approaches a March 2 trial date on charges of lying to a federal grand jury about performance-enhancing drugs, Selig added he was considering the reinstatement of Henry Aaron as the rightful home run king in the official record books.
And Ruth? Well, if supporting terrorism today is wrong, how about supporting organized crime in the 20's???? Ruth was it's biggest customer!! Ok, so he's out.
Hmmm, by the time we're done, OK it's official.
The MLB Home Run King is Lou Gehrig! ! !
We all know no one can touch him, not after that speech at Yankee stadium and having a disease named after him (ALS). Congrats Lou ! ! !
Lou! Lou! Lou!
I'm glad so many agree with me on this: making Aaron the home run king again would be the fall of Selig's era as commissinor. This would be the only thing he would be remembered for.
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
i understand that...but if they are going to take Bonds numbers away then the Yankees of 2000 who the Mitchell rpt found a number of them were roiding are in the same boat. Same with ARODs MVP the year he juiced in texas....and a host of other records i'm sure we could critique if researched.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
Yeah, and a couple of them in the 90's too.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
I mean I don't have any proof, but I remember that third baseman for them back then had that "droid look" about him, bulked and in the face too. Don't know if his name has been publicly linked, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did them. I think his name was Scott Brosius, but I might have the name wrong. All I remember for sure was he was their 3rd baseman.
And wasn't Pettite with them in a couple of their WS wins in the 90's??? And isn't Pettite an "admitted" violator??
It seems like A-Rod and Bonds are basically going to end up taking all the blame and punishment for all the players who did anything. You could probably throw Big-Mac in their to a lesser extent. It will be interesting to see what happens with Clemens come HOF voting time too.
This is taking it a step too far.
What about all the players that aren't home run kings and hall of famers (or future)? What about the normal everyday 280 hitters? they aren't talked abuot but they are just as much to blame as these guys.Quote:
Originally Posted by 200tang
I would like to know who leaked A-Rods name and why haven't any of the other 103 players been leaked. With a list of over 100 hundred names and test results it had to have taken some time to match A-Rods name(since there were no names, they were all coded) with the test results and this was the only name that has come out.
The whole situation is getting really old, lets move on already
PerfectQuote:
Originally Posted by Reade
Oswalt can shove it. Really. That guy got to the World Series with help from Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte and he didn't make a peep. He didn't say anything when the Astros traded for Miguel Tejada. Oswalt, whether or not he personally used steroids, has benefited from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
Joe Maddon, Rays manager, came out in support of amnesty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavelb1
There's also the fact that Hank Aaron admitted to taking amphetamines.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldFatGuy
They'd have to take away EVERY World Series trophy given out in the last...X years...because I guarantee that each and every team had players that were on the stuff. That's not questionable anymore. The entire era is RIDDLED with steroid use. The entire HISTORY of baseball is RIDDLED with performance-enhancing drug use. Changing the statistical record is quite possibly the dumbest idea that the steroid issue has inspired.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
From a commenter at BTF:
Interesting take.Quote:
This is exactly why when players like Giambi and Rodriguez apologize, they never actually mention the word steroids, are never specific about what they did, how much they did or who they got it from. A-rod got a lot of criticism for being vague about the specifics of his PED use, but the fact is, jerkwads like Bud make it impossible for the whole truth to come out because the player has to worry about going to jail.
I almost think Bud is acting like this because he simply does not want active players admitting their PED use. He would much rather A-Rod deny and say the samples were probably corrupt - something A-Rod could have done because those samples were obtained outside of the jurisdiction of the law. It was all fine and good to pin the steroids rap on Bonds and Clemens who were heading into retirement, as well as a bunch of other no-names. But if in those 103 other names are guys like Guerrero, Jeter, Pujols, Berkman, Helton, Santana, Webb -- guys who are synonymous with the baseball brand, than it completely undermines the entire purpose of the Mitchell Report which was basically a PR piece that was supposed to put steroids squarely in the past since all the big names were either retired or not very good.
Anyway, A-Rod isn't going to be punished. Whatever Selig tries, the MLBPA will fight tooth and nail and probably win.
While this whole thing is preposturous, if they do issue discipline or strike records it would be for those who have been proven to have used through a positive test or admission of guilt. Can't just label everyone a cheat and strike the record book of 50+ years.Quote:
They'd have to take away EVERY World Series trophy given out in the last...X years...because I guarantee that each and every team had players that were on the stuff. That's not questionable anymore. The entire era is RIDDLED with steroid use. The entire HISTORY of baseball is RIDDLED with performance-enhancing drug use. Changing the statistical record is quite possibly the dumbest idea that the steroid issue has inspired.
This whole thing is a waste of our time this morning, I don't think Selig is that dumb. I hope i'm not giving him too much credit.
Comparing it to murder is pretty ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
The amphetamine comparisons, on the other hand, are much more reasonable.
The Anabolic Steroid Act of 1990 classified steroids as Schedule III controlled substances, the same classification as amphetamines. So if you take the stance that illegality under the law is the basis for punishment by MLB, you should advocate the same punishment for any player who used amphetamines.
Which is why the whole notion of striking records from the books is insane. If a World Series can stand when one team was actively trying to lose, there is absolutely no reason why these records shouldn't stand.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Discipline is one thing. I don't agree with it, particularly in A-Rod's case, but it's not unreasonable. Striking records from the books? Quite frankly, **** NO.
Throwing facts and logic into a steroids discussion????:eek: :eek: :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by JayC
excellent point. i think the masses don't really know what amphetamines are or what they do which is why it garners less attention than steroids from joe fan.Quote:
Originally Posted by JayC
It doesn't help that the media turns a blind eye to amphetamines. I don't think "the masses" are nearly as outraged about steroid use as the media is, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
It'd also help if the media didn't misreport things. I don't know how many times I've heard Neifi Perez referred to as a steroid user, when it was amphetamines that he was suspended for.
MDMA is schedule IIIQuote:
Originally Posted by OldFatGuy
Cocaine is schedule II
Does this make any sense?
It makes more sense than marijuana being Schedule I.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavelb1