Jose Canseco is owed an apology...

... from the media, fans, and the players.

Just about EVERYTHING he has stated in his books and in his public appearences has turned out to be true.

Palmeiro, check.
Clemens, check.
McGwire, not here to talk about the past.

Now, A-Rod, who Canseco claimed asked him about steroids and to whom he referred a dealer in "Juiced", check.

So, I think I will step up and say, sorry Jose, I blasted you not because I didn't believe you, I did it because I didn't WANT to believe you. But you apparently have been 100% honest about this issue, regardless of why you were.

So, Canseco a great guy and humanitarian, not so much. Canseco, the honest man... well okay an honest man about this issue.

Only guy left on his list is Sosa who I am really hoping didn't test positive. But it doesn't look good. When I was a little kid, I was in awe of his command at the plate. He was my hero. But now he is shrouded in mystery.

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Originally Posted by AndrewOsborn

Only guy left on his list is Sosa who I am really hoping didn't test positive. But it doesn't look good. When I was a little kid, I was in awe of his command at the plate. He was my hero. But now he is shrouded in mystery.

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He's innocent like McGwire is. Neither tested positive, but when asked point blank, one forgot how to speak English & the other insisted upon not talking about the past.

I believed him on some things, others I didnt, but now it shows he was telling the truth on everyone all along. :(

Well, my biggest issue with Jose has always been...Jose. That's always been my reason to not give a crap about the dude. And that hasn't changed.

Yeah like Arctic said I'd apologize if Jose wasn't a huge jerk.

what made Canseco a villian in the first place?? the MLB media machine went to work on him after he released the book is what. He was black listed from the game prior to...I do believe that. He's had some brushings with the law but none more significant than dozens of others. He's looked at as scum however because the MLB media machine trashed him after his book which apparently was more non-fiction than they wanted us to believe.

I don't have a big problem with someone talking about what happens in the game, in fact I wish they'd do more of it. Everyone claims to want to know the 'behind the scenes stuff', everyone claims to hate cliche's when nothing is said of value...and when someone does go and tell the truth about what goes on they are persecuted for "tattle telling". Grow up! He's a whistle blower, not a tattle tale.

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Originally Posted by dickay

what made Canseco a villian in the first place?? the MLB media machine went to work on him after he released the book is what. He was black listed from the game prior to...I do believe that. He's had some brushings with the law but none more significant than dozens of others. He's looked at as scum however because the MLB media machine trashed him after his book which apparently was more non-fiction than they wanted us to believe.

I don't have a big problem with someone talking about what happens in the game, in fact I wish they'd do more of it. Everyone claims to want to know the 'behind the scenes stuff', everyone claims to hate cliche's when nothing is said of value...and when someone does go and tell the truth about what goes on they are persecuted for "tattle telling". Grow up! He's a whistle blower, not a tattle tale.

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And then the players he tells the truth about get dragged through the mud too! It's a lose-lose situation for every player involved (but managers, front office, and the media...they're all safe!).

I don't like Jose Canseco, but I agree with you here.

Jose Canseco is a reliable source, people need to realize this.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

And then the players he tells the truth about get dragged through the mud too! It's a lose-lose situation for every player involved (but managers, front office, and the media...they're all safe!).

I don't like Jose Canseco, but I agree with you here.

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well, the player(s) deserve it IMO. The managers, front office, media..they all have a role as well but I don't hold them as responsible. They do deserve some scrutiny though, and more than what they've got thus far. I actually get sick when I read todays Jon Heyman article which is titled;

"Players union is largely responsible for ARODs steroid predicament."

Sorry.........but no, AROD is largely responsible for ARODs predicament. :rolleyes:

The reporters MLB Network has been dragging to the screen, Heyman included, have all been trying their darnedest to blame this on the union, for whatever stupid reasoning. I wouldn't say A-Rod is "largely responsible" for his predicament. Partially, yes, obviously, assuming the reports are accurate. But, really, his name should not have been released, and the blame for that goes squarely on the process of conducting the "anonymous" tests, the investigators that helped themselves to the full list, and whoever leaked the one name.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

The reporters MLB Network has been dragging to the screen, Heyman included, have all been trying their darnedest to blame this on the union, for whatever stupid reasoning. I wouldn't say A-Rod is "largely responsible" for his predicament. Partially, yes, obviously, assuming the reports are accurate. But, really, his name should not have been released, and the blame for that goes squarely on the process of conducting the "anonymous" tests, the investigators that helped themselves to the full list, and whoever leaked the one name.

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Well, assuming AROD DID in fact take steroids....then he IS largely to blame. If he hadn't then he wouldn't have tested positive and the leak of the list would be moot concerning him. Its absurd to blame the leak of a list for his misfortunes, he is not the victim. Now if he didn't take roids....then i feel bad for him and hope to high he!l he is able to prove his innocence and sue the he!l out of everyone.

I think you and I both believe he is in fact guilty.....but there are certainly questions that haven't been answered and a possibility that this is all a big mistake, however small that is.

Even if he did test positive and the allegations are true, I absolutely do think he is still a victim here. His civil rights have been infringed upon. I don't care how guilty he is of the crime of steroid use, he can still be a victim of another's crime.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

The reporters MLB Network has been dragging to the screen, Heyman included, have all been trying their darnedest to blame this on the union, for whatever stupid reasoning. I wouldn't say A-Rod is "largely responsible" for his predicament. Partially, yes, obviously, assuming the reports are accurate. But, really, his name should not have been released, and the blame for that goes squarely on the process of conducting the "anonymous" tests, the investigators that helped themselves to the full list, and whoever leaked the one name.

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That's a good point, but as well, I think dickay has the trump card here: the person who is ultimately responsible for what goes in your body is you. Lance Armstrong was accused six ways from Sunday for doping, and it's easy to see why: because he's an incredible athlete, capable of unbelievable things. But Lance had the final word on the matter: he didn't take anything. If A-Rod or McGwire or whomever knew that that was the case, they too could say it.

As to the original posting, I admire people like Andy Pettitte, Brian Roberts, and yes, to an extent, Jose Canseco for coming clean about what they did.

I do not admire the way Canseco came clean. He used it to capitalize and make money..... He could have done it without writing two cheaply made books and selling the info. Instead he went about it with total greed....

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Even if he did test positive and the allegations are true, I absolutely do think he is still a victim here. His civil rights have been infringed upon. I don't care how guilty he is of the crime of steroid use, he can still be a victim of another's crime.

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true....but the article title i mentioned saying the union was to blame for his predicament was inaccurate. as mentioned, arod is to blame for his predicament, if these allegations are true.

and as for the details on how this was leaked, those aren't fully known either.

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Originally Posted by dickay

true....but the article title i mentioned saying the union was to blame for his predicament was inaccurate. as mentioned, arod is to blame for his predicament, if these allegations are true.

and as for the details on how this was leaked, those aren't fully known either.

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A-Rod is to blame for the positive test. Everything after that is not his fault, and he should not get any of the blame for it.

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

I do not admire the way Canseco came clean. He used it to capitalize and make money..... He could have done it without writing two cheaply made books and selling the info. Instead he went about it with total greed....

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i don't have a problem with him 'making money' by selling his story. I wish all players would be more insightful about the behind the scenes stuff in their stories.

now as for the person who said they "admire canseco, pettitte, etc. there is a double standard which i loath. pettite, giambi, and others who admitted to using this stuff still did use it. its unfair what bonds and now arod have to shoulder while many get by with a slap on the wrist.

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Originally Posted by dickay

now as for the person who said they "admire canseco, pettitte, etc. there is a double standard which i loath. pettite, giambi, and others who admitted to using this stuff still did use it. its unfair what bonds and now arod have to shoulder while many get by with a slap on the wrist.

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the reason I dont feel bad for the guys who came clean, is the same reason your mom only grounds your for a week when you come clean about breakin the lamp, when if you lied about it you would get grounded for a month and no tv or phone either.

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Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet

the reason I dont feel bad for the guys who came clean, is the same reason your mom only grounds your for a week when you come clean about breakin the lamp, when if you lied about it you would get grounded for a month and no tv or phone either.

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thats fair....but there are others, Palmeiro and Merriman for example, that don't get nearly the same lashing that Bonds & AROD get and they denied using. Palmeiro left the game so I can understand him but i'm sure there are others that just don't come to mind at the moment. Merriman now, he's popular whereas Bonds and Arod weren't which is why he doesn't get attacked.

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Originally Posted by dickay

thats fair....but there are others, Palmeiro and Merriman for example, that don't get nearly the same lashing that Bonds & AROD get and they denied using. Palmeiro left the game so I can understand him but i'm sure there are others that just don't come to mind at the moment. Merriman now, he's popular whereas Bonds and Arod weren't which is why he doesn't get attacked.

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I dont understand the double standard of roids in baseball and football. It worries me more in football because its such a violent game.

I'm devastated at the increase in steroids in water polo, as well as pole-vaulting.

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Originally Posted by dickay

thats fair....but there are others, Palmeiro and Merriman for example, that don't get nearly the same lashing that Bonds & AROD get and they denied using. Palmeiro left the game so I can understand him but i'm sure there are others that just don't come to mind at the moment. Merriman now, he's popular whereas Bonds and Arod weren't which is why he doesn't get attacked.

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He doesn't get attacked because people aren't as self-righteous about steroids in football as they are in baseball. In football, players get suspended all the time and life goes on and nobody cares. Baseball is held to a different standard, for reasons I could never begin to understand.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

He doesn't get attacked because people aren't as self-righteous about steroids in football as they are in baseball. In football, players get suspended all the time and life goes on and nobody cares. Baseball is held to a different standard, for reasons I could never begin to understand.

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Simply because in Baseball THEY don't suspend LOL ! Case in point!!

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

Simply because in Baseball THEY don't suspend LOL ! Case in point!!

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Um, yes they do? :confused:

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Um, yes they do? :confused:

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And those people that have been suspended have not seemed to suffer much in terms of public opinion. Being punished, even if the punishment is light, has the consequence that people believe that you have paid for your sins.

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

And those people that have been suspended have not seemed to suffer much in terms of public opinion.

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That'd be because the players that have been suspended haven't challenged any "hallowed records." They've been mostly mediocre or worse players. The biggest name player to have been suspended was Rafael Palmeiro, and he slinked away from the game and has kept himself out of the limelight.

At any rate, I think it says a lot about the complete and utter backwardness of the issue that it's better (to the media and public) for a player to test positive for steroids at a time where there are official MLB rules than it is for a player to have allegedly done steroids at a time in which they could do steroids without fear of punishment by the league. People that break the rules knowing they could get punished are somehow better than those that break no rules?

I'm not disagreeing with you - just my perception of how people react. And the hallowed records have an influence - there is no comparable record in football to the HR record in baseball. You are allowed to be good on steroids - but don't be ridiculously good because then we, the public, get offended.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

He doesn't get attacked because people aren't as self-righteous about steroids in football as they are in baseball. In football, players get suspended all the time and life goes on and nobody cares. Baseball is held to a different standard, for reasons I could never begin to understand.

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What, you never saw the George Carlin routine about the differences between baseball and football? The NFL is a collection of gun-toting hypersteroidal criminals; MLB, at least on the surface, isn't. This, of course, is why football is so much more popular than baseball in the U.S.

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Originally Posted by dickay

now as for the person who said they "admire canseco, pettitte, etc. there is a double standard which i loath. pettite, giambi, and others who admitted to using this stuff still did use it. its unfair what bonds and now arod have to shoulder while many get by with a slap on the wrist.

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That was me who said that...and don't get me wrong, I agree that it isn't fair for them to get a slap on the wrist. I think if the penalties were much harsher - say, second proven offense of any kind and you are banned for life - players would indeed think twice.

What I admire is the ability to admit wrongdoing. We can say what we want about the game, but whatever the case, people will do stupid things and make stupid mistakes, regardless of whether they are pro athletes or schlubs like us. When we can admit it openly and take responsibility for it - that's when a difference can be made, both in the life of the person doing it and in the lives of those affected by it.

And guys who don't juice at all for whatever reason, like Sal Fasano, are likely to end up stuck in the minors.

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Originally Posted by oriole^

That was me who said that...and don't get me wrong, I agree that it isn't fair for them to get a slap on the wrist. I think if the penalties were much harsher - say, second proven offense of any kind and you are banned for life - players would indeed think twice.

What I admire is the ability to admit wrongdoing. We can say what we want about the game, but whatever the case, people will do stupid things and make stupid mistakes, regardless of whether they are pro athletes or schlubs like us. When we can admit it openly and take responsibility for it - that's when a difference can be made, both in the life of the person doing it and in the lives of those affected by it.

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I agree with this. I'd also like to see some or all of the 104 remaining names come out and admit to it BEFORE the list is released in its entirety. They know who they are and are probably sleeping poorly wondering if or when the remaining names will slip. Just come out, admit.....and we can all move forward.

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Originally Posted by dickay

I agree with this. I'd also like to see some or all of the 104 remaining names come out and admit to it BEFORE the list is released in its entirety. They know who they are and are probably sleeping poorly wondering if or when the remaining names will slip. Just come out, admit.....and we can all move forward.

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ditto :p

If all 103 others come out, is congress going to invite them too? Congress needs to drop it. Its in the past, no need to focus on the past. That's just making things worse. Focus on the future and cleaning up the sport.

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Originally Posted by bucher34

If all 103 others come out, is congress going to invite them too? Congress needs to drop it. Its in the past, no need to focus on the past. That's just making things worse. Focus on the future and cleaning up the sport.

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I hate to say if but as I stated in the other thread.... Give full pardon, and everyone admit it... get it over with... stop these damn investigations and crap and get to current and future stuff

I fully agree. Its tiresome still hearing about all this. Get over it and move on. If President Obama is the baseball fan he claims he is, then just pardon the past and focus on the future. No need to destroy the names. Obama should be coming down on these congressmen that are still going after players as well as the methods his agencies took to seize "evidence" of steroid use for players like Bonds.

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Originally Posted by bucher34

Focus on the future and cleaning up the sport.

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So true but first they (the Union,MLB & teams) have to ACTUALLY try to clean up the sport --- as of today it seems that all parties have tried to do the opposite - Union leaking test dates to players,MLB not applicating real fines/bans to those WHO actually test positive & teams/management condoning the whole system by hiring "dubious" personnel to placate their stars & even rewarding some with mammoth contracts.

As posted elsewhere their seems to be a collusion NOT to find the cheaters because they "helped" revive the sport (Sosa/McGwire) & unlike other sports the MLB was (& is) happy with the status quo.Dick Pound sums it up well here:

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fter continued criticism and intense pressure from the U.S. Congress, MLB commissioner Bud Selig has made moves to toughen baseball's drug-testing policies and penalties.

"That's part of the deal," said Pound. "When they put this competition together, that there would be international standards and not Major League Baseball, where you can hold up the liquor store five times before you get a meaningful (penalty)."

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

So true but first they (the Union,MLB & teams) have to ACTUALLY try to clean up the sport

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Calling players in front of Congress does absolutely nothing to further that goal.

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--- as of today it seems that all parties have tried to do the opposite -

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If today was the year 2001, I'd agree.

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Union leaking test dates to players

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Speculative accusations with little to no evidence.

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MLB not applicating real fines/bans to those WHO actually test positive

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Example?

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& teams/management condoning the whole system by hiring "dubious" personnel to placate their stars & even rewarding some with mammoth contracts.

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This has more to do with the past than the present.

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As posted elsewhere their seems to be a collusion NOT to find the cheaters because they "helped" revive the sport (Sosa/McGwire) & unlike other sports the MLB was (& is) happy with the status quo.

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Uh, WHAT? LOL. Really? They're not trying to find out the cheaters? I suppose this depends on whose "colluding" in your opinion, but to say that there's more interest in keeping those players hidden is absolutely counterfactual.

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Dick Pound sums it up well here:

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Written in 2005 before MLB toughened its policies.

FRS, your complaints are spot-on if this was a couple of years ago. Right now, the game is being cleaned up. The testing program is better than that of any of the other major professional leagues in America. Your complaints about teams being complicit in harboring steroid use and all that are accurate, which is why I find it pathetic that Congress, the media, etc. are all going after the players while giving a complete free pass to the league.