I am not arguing one way or the other, i just find this statement sort of contradictory. On one hand theres no way to know what they do for a player, but on the other you know it doesn't make a player great?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
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I am not arguing one way or the other, i just find this statement sort of contradictory. On one hand theres no way to know what they do for a player, but on the other you know it doesn't make a player great?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
There's no way to know exactly what effect it has on a player's performance, but it's not going to turn a poor player into a great player...because it is not a magical drug that gives you baseball talent. Baseball isn't a game like football (for certain positions) where the only real requirement is being strong. If you have poor hand-eye coordination, for example, no amount of steroids will make you good at baseball.Quote:
Originally Posted by rogue9
i just don't care
From BTF:
What he said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray DiPerna
I agree with you houston....you have said everything perfectly
I'm not really sure what you are saying to me here. I don't know if you are agreeing with me or are accusing me of reacting too strongly against A-Rod.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
All I am saying is that IF A-Rod knew he didn't use steroids, he should issue a short statement of "I didn't take steroids" and leave it at that. I don't think A-Rod is a horrible person if he did it and yes, people react way too strongly at the first bit of evidence (whether credible or not) and completely trash a player no matter what...but if he didn't do it, he should say he didn't do it. If someone accuses me of a crime or something this severe that I know I didn't do, I'd deny it. He should too...and if he does deny it and then it gets proven that he did use them, he should be called a liar.
By not denying it, it's telling me he is probably guilty. I am not saying he should be suspended or that he shouldn't make the HOF or that he isn't a great player now, but it's disappointing that he made that mistake. That's all I think about it. I'm ready to move on.
It is BS that supposed anonymous tests are being linked..but that's just the world we live in. It is unfair to do that..but it's also unfair to all those who didn't use steroids that they have been cheated to some degree by those who did use steroids. It's an unfortunate and unfair situation in many, many aspects. Owners, players, media, and audience.
I've gotta give some of the credit to the random folks at Baseball Think Factory that I've quoted. ;):)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
Sorry for not being clear. I wasn't responding directly to you, but rather your statement just made me think of what I posted - accused players are in a no-win situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by KowboyKoop
Definitely agree with that. The best an innocent player can do is deny it and hope to be thoroughly proven innocent. The media is one of the biggest culprits in this..just looking to break a newstory and ruin anyone's name that gets in their way.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I don't think the use of steroids should be a big issue anymore in the past...but it damn sure needs to be eliminated as thoroughly as possible so that HS kids don't get too caught up in steroid use. Hearing some of the stories about HS kids using steroids is scary and a serious and potentially fatal issue. Baseball should focus ALL of their energy on eliminating steroids and similar substances from the game now and into the future and stop worrying about who did it in the past. That is pointless..eliminating it now can actually change things.
Yeah, I agree. If the effort we put into tearing down great player's accomplishments and moralizing about the past was put into steroid education and preventive measures, and the focus removed from the players who stuck needles in their asses and returned to...you know...baseball...everybody would be a lot better off.Quote:
Originally Posted by KowboyKoop
Still reading through the massive BTF thread on this (and it's still growing), and there's some discussion about the benefits of steroid use for baseball players. One person's comment, in particular, struck me as very important to mention here because of the earlier discussion that since players did steroids and all, they must give them some benefit.
And another:Quote:
Originally Posted by Crashburn Alley
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Originally Posted by Ray DiPerna
You know, im probably one of the few guys not a Yankees fan that actually respected A-Rod. I think he goes through too much with the media and a ton of it is undeserved.
I believe Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Clemens, and others ruined the integrity of the game. You can argue every which way it is not 100% proven, but it doesnt matter with the majority of people. I was thinking that A-Rod would restore a ton of that majority when or if he breaks the home run record.
But now that is lost. I dont care if he only did it one season, its wrong and it upsets me a ton knowing that guy didnt have to resort to that to break records. Im upset at his privacy being exploited in the manner of how this report came out. I would have been happier not knowing this, just so I had some faith left in this sport of people doing things right, which I thought A-Rod was about.
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Originally Posted by KowboyKoop
Kowboy, I think you might be reading too much into this.Quote:
Originally Posted by KowboyKoop
A-Rod (and, for the record, I can't stand him, either, BTW) is a member of the MLBPA. As such, he may simply have been instructed by the union not to say anything yet. The matter seems far from closed, so for now, this is probably just prudent "damage control", until they decide what the "official" position is going to be.
What "integrity of the game"? The game has never had "integrity." That's just a utopian fantasy. Players have been cheating since the game was invented.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle took amphetamines. Does anybody ever accuse them of ruining the integrity of the game? Amphetamines, like steroids, are illegal drugs, and are "performance enhancers." Why are amphetamines okay for the "integrity of the game", but not steroids? Why are we so sure that players prior to the 1990's never did steroids? Can we really say that Hank Aaron definitely did not take steroids? One of his teammates from the early 70's, Tom House, has admitted that he and other players did experiment with steroids, although he didn't finger which other players.
Steroids, performance-enhancing drugs, cheating, and assortments of other things that hurt the "integrity of the game" have been part of the game forever.
BTF just keeps churning out great quotes:
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Originally Posted by Where's Vince Lloyd Now That We Need Him?(sjs1959)
Amphetimines are not really any more effective than a good dose of caffiene, and a great deal of that stimulus is mental anyway....meaning you *could* fight through that fatigue, but just knowing you took something makes one feel 'up', as it were.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Just throwing that out there, I know technically it was cheating.
I find it funny that Arod was the one taking steroids and it MLB and the Players Union that come off looking the the Scumbags.
And the government....and media.Quote:
Originally Posted by gRYFYN1
Well I think mostly everyone concluded that the government is a bunch of scumbags even if they never did anything about steroids and baseball. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Excuse me, but what the hell does it matter if the effect of the steroids were big or not? It's still cheating. If you go to a test unprepared and have written out cheat notes all over the place, compared to if you've just brought one with you, you're still gonna flunk either way if you get caught. An advantage of let's say 2% over your opponent as opposed to 10% is still an unfair advantage and equals cheating in my book.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Well amphetamines doesnt anger me as much as steroids. I guess because steroids helps prevents injuries from occurring while amphetamines just gives you energy to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
But your right though, everyone has cheated, but look at it like this, McGwire was essentially done playing around 93-94 or so because of injuries, and steroids helped prolong his career to enable him to do the things he did. If he was taking amphetamine instead, he still would have been done unable to play.
Nobody can stop him from saying I didn't do it. He may not be able to discuss specifics, but they can't stop him from saying "I'm innocent." If they have proof that he tested positive for steroids and he doesn't deny it when he gets asked about it, I'd say that's a pretty strong indication that he did it. I'm not making any judgement on him as a person..but the fact it, I'd say the chance that he used steroids is near 100%. It is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by StreetMedic
I'm not saying it isn't cheating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slingshot
Do steroids help prevent injuries from occurring? People say that, but then on the same hand, say that steroids are to blame for players breaking down early. So, which is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
We don't know that steroids helped prolong his career. We also don't know when he began taking steroids. If we're to believe everything that Jose Canseco has said, McGwire began taking steroids far before his injury problems.Quote:
But your right though, everyone has cheated, but look at it like this, McGwire was essentially done playing around 93-94 or so because of injuries, and steroids helped prolong his career to enable him to do the things he did.
Nobody's saying they can stop him (whatever punitive mechanisms may exist in the union's own bylaws, notwithstanding). But if you're in a jam, and your union representation and their lawyers say, "don't say anything yet", you probably don't. You choose not to, based on what your representation recommends.Quote:
Originally Posted by KowboyKoop
I'd say the proof is a stronger indication that he did it than his lack of a denial, no?Quote:
Originally Posted by KowboyKoop
There's a whole host of reasons why someone "pleads the fifth", or is kept off the witness stand by a defense attorney. Actual guilt is but one of those reasons.
You are likely correct about this. But the fact that he's keeping mum doesn't make me any more suspicious than I would otherwise be.Quote:
Originally Posted by KowboyKoop
From what Ive heard, steroids can do both depending on the dosages and legnth of use. Take too much or too long and eventually your whole body starts to break down, take the right amount and your body grows stronger for a limited time. But prolonged use has nothing but ill effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Most people make that arguement for HGH, not steroids.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Steroids =/= HGH
All this said, there is scant, at best, scientific evidence proving that monitored, properly cycled steroid use by fully developed men is anywhere near as detrimental as the media makes it seem. Again, monitored use w/ proper cycling, not just taking them to take them & get bigger.
It also great depends on what steroids you are taking .. Steroids like say, Cortizone, are widely accepted in sports, While ones like Valtrex are used but people on a regular basis.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
Steroids are prescribed to children suffer allergic reaction regularly, I personally took 3 different steriods due to a viral infection in my ear.
There are 100's of steriods that serve alot of purposes, some help heal, some strengthen, some bulk up, some relieve pain.
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Originally Posted by StreetMedic
No, the fact that he is keeping quiet doens't mean he is guilty. The fact that he has tested positive for steroids and hasn't denied it means he is, to me, almost without a doubt guilty of it....to some degree.
You "plead the fifth" when discussing specifics. If you are innocent of something, you don't say no comment when asked if you are innocent. I don't buy that for a second.
Steroids have left a stain on the game that for me at least is as bad as '94. Part of my love for the game is its history, for me the players tainted by this brush have diminished both themselves and the game. I cannot look at Bonds, Clemens et al and not discount what they have done. I am saddened for players we think of as 'lesser' in this era who played clean.
Bonds and Clemens are assholes. If they had the moral fiber of say, Roberto Clemente *, then it wouldn't matter to me a whit. Just as-since I really have little to no antipathy to Arod-it really hasn't changed anything, except to say "Look we just need to accept that just about everyone did PED's and move on"Quote:
Originally Posted by acetoolguy
*Ironically an MLB special on Clemente has been pre-empted by this mess.
I'm in that category as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
and now, just like with Bonds, people will say put an astrix by his numbers....people drive me insane with these notions.
Everything from the Chi sox scandal, to willie Mays to Bonds....players cheat in some way to get an advantage. As long as there are no consequences, do you really expect the players to not take them? You would in their shoes if your career, livelyhood, and success depended on you succeeding at a sport. You would find some way to improve....and for many players this made a lot of sense to do....not trying to defend them, simply explaining it....don't judge someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes.
I guess Guitar Hero knew what it was doing when it chose Phelps and Arod for it's commercials.
Rob Neyer on this, with a solid excerpt from the Joe Torre book about how much of a relentless worker A-Rod is.
The final paragraph:
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I hope Alex Rodriguez didn't cheat. If we do find out that he cheated, I will wish that he hadn't. But whatever happens, I'm not going to change my opinion that he's a great baseball player. Like many of the greatest players, he'll do whatever it takes to be the best player he can be. For a stretch of five or 10 years -- and yes, perhaps even today still -- being the best player could have meant cheating. Maybe the cheaters were wrong; that's the direction in which I lean, probably because I've got a streak of the moralist in me. But I will not sit idly while great athletes looking for an edge -- not all that different from the many generations before them -- are demonized by the high priests of baseball opinion. I will not.
Sorry but if I am innocent of ANY wrongdoing in the matter, I'm screaming that out loud from the highest mountain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffy25
Here's what this proves...that everyone who wondered if baseball management and Bud Selig was just as big an ignorant jackass as we all thought they were was completely right. Of course these c*nt f*ckbags KNEW this was going on...there's no way they couldn't know, not involving this many big name players over this period of time.
You wanna clean up baseball? DEFINITELY players should be held accountable...but that's NOT where you start. You start by tossing every single member of baseball's executive branch out on the street...every single one of the morons who let all of this crap go on and on and on, who let all of this get to this point in the first place whilst chasing yet another truckload of money.
Congratulations, Bud Selig...with every name that's mentioned, it simply reinforces the fact that you are the most pathetic jerkoff to EVER commission a league.
Some random thoughts as I haven't had time to read this full thread;
1. I'm very curious to know the FULL details about how this information was obtained. These were supposedly anonymous tests...at least that is what we were told. Was there any circumstances in which these could be released? Hard to say, we don't know the full information about how it was structured. If it was truly supposed to be completely anonymous and in writing that those taking them would never have their identity known...the I have issues with it. Also, who really released the information, and how was it released? Those are things I'd like to hear more on.
2. A thing or two about drug tests.....if I take one today and come back "non-negative" the doc then has to screen me to find out exactly what type of medicine / supplements i am taking that may have had an effect on the tests. For all we know, ARO(I)D could have been on Andro and that led to the "non-negative". Because these were taken "anonymously" I wonder if there was that Doctor / Patient interview after the "non-negative" test, and if there wasn't than IMO everyone of those tests are suspect and cannot be used to guarentee roids were used. Its highly likely, but not a guarentee.
3. I really have to laugh when people say "there is no evidence steroids help the baseball player". Why then do they take them??? I do believe that people like Balco who hire scientists and medical professionals have at least in their minds perfected PED "programs" to maximize their benefits for each individual, and judging by the success they've had (Marion Jones, Bonds to name just a couple) they UNQUESTIONABLY make a profound difference, at least IMO.
4. I do see a big difference between "cheating" in terms of scuffing a baseball, corking a bat, using vaseline, etc...and using PED's or gambling on baseball. Our legal system has different gravity of crimes, and I think its evident that baseball should to. "Cheating" is not the same across the board.
5. I've said this before....I am not against any "witch hunt" to totally expose all who have used PED's illegally for gain at the professional level (providing its done within the context of the law, this AROID situation is concerning). I say that because I believe it is becoming a serious problem at the semi-pro, collegiate, and high school levels, where they don't have these "scientists" designing special PED's and programs to ensure health. The use of it has to stop, however when society sees the great advantages it has brought many of these athletes, it unquestionably increases the unprofessional usage of these drugs.
6. Regarding Selig, the union, and other baseball owners and officials....while they were complicit I have yet to see where they fully realized the full extent of the problem prior to 2003 testing. Maybe they purposely didn't want to dive into and investigate it...i do believe that. But I can't hold them more accountable, or to the save extent as I do the players who did this on their own accord through trainers and other players.
I'm pretty sure that wouldn't help anything. As I said, any guy remotely linked to steroids is in a lose-lose situation. The best they can do is admit to it and get the media to stop focusing on them, a la Andy Pettitte and Jason Giambi. No matter their guilt or innocence, denying it will do nothing except get them branded with a "liar" label, and not saying anything will get them the McGwire treatment.Quote:
Originally Posted by JeepGuy63
Yes, it was supposed to be anonymous. The agreement between the MLB and the MLBPA stipulated that, AND said that the samples were to be destroyed. And, of course, neither of those things happened. Their method of keeping it "anonymous" was to put a code on the samples, so that the people conducting the tests wouldn't know who it belonged, and then a master list connecting the codes to names was kept in a separate state. The government, as part of its BALCO investigation, had a warrant to look at the results for players connected to the BALCO investigation. For whatever reason, they ended up taking the whole list. And now, somebody leaked one name off that list, and being that it was a sealed court document, that person should be prosecuted, but probably won't be since we all know taking steroids is way worse than trashing civil rights.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Yes. Very, very true. People are already jumping all over A-Rod and numerous articles are being penned claiming that he won't get their HoF vote, etc. but the full details of this aren't close to being known. All we know is that according to four sources, Alex Rodriguez's name is on a list of 104 positive tests, and he tested positive for a steroid and testosterone. We don't even know for sure if that IS true, considering there's been more than one example in the past of a leak related to the steroid issue being wrong. Remember that pre-Mitchell Report leak claiming that Albert Pujols was named in it? Until we know more than the tiny sliver of crap we know now, we really shouldn't be passing judgment on the guy. That's too much to ask though.Quote:
2. A thing or two about drug tests.....if I take one today and come back "non-negative" the doc then has to screen me to find out exactly what type of medicine / supplements i am taking that may have had an effect on the tests. For all we know, ARO(I)D could have been on Andro and that led to the "non-negative". Because these were taken "anonymously" I wonder if there was that Doctor / Patient interview after the "non-negative" test, and if there wasn't than IMO everyone of those tests are suspect and cannot be used to guarentee roids were used. Its highly likely, but not a guarentee.
There is no evidence of how steroids help a baseball player. You can't point to Barry Bonds and then claim that as evidence, because if that is the standard of proof, I could point to the hundreds of nobodies that did steroids.Quote:
3. I really have to laugh when people say "there is no evidence steroids help the baseball player". Why then do they take them??? I do believe that people like Balco who hire scientists and medical professionals have at least in their minds perfected PED "programs" to maximize their benefits for each individual, and judging by the success they've had (Marion Jones, Bonds to name just a couple) they UNQUESTIONABLY make a profound difference, at least IMO.
What makes steroids different from other PED's, then, like amphetamines?Quote:
4. I do see a big difference between "cheating" in terms of scuffing a baseball, corking a bat, using vaseline, etc...and using PED's or gambling on baseball. Our legal system has different gravity of crimes, and I think its evident that baseball should to. "Cheating" is not the same across the board.
Doesn't that last sentence contradict the rest of the paragraph? If society seeing the success that athletes have had while using the stuff increases the use of the drugs among non-professionals, wouldn't conducting a witch hunt to expose as many of those players as possible therefore serve to increase non-professional drug use?Quote:
5. I've said this before....I am not against any "witch hunt" to totally expose all who have used PED's illegally for gain at the professional level (providing its done within the context of the law, this AROID situation is concerning). I say that because I believe it is becoming a serious problem at the semi-pro, collegiate, and high school levels, where they don't have these "scientists" designing special PED's and programs to ensure health. The use of it has to stop, however when society sees the great advantages it has brought many of these athletes, it unquestionably increases the unprofessional usage of these drugs.
I'm NOT against having rules and testing in place to prevent and punish PED use from here on out. That's different, though, from going back in time and trying to find out who did what when, especially considering it is 100% impossible to ever do that, because steroid use in baseball has been going on since at least the early 1970's, and PED experimentation and use has been going on since the 19th century. Instead of focusing on the past, we should be focusing on eliminating the stuff from the game now and in the future.
Considering there were murmurs of steroid use in the press in the mid-1990's, I think they absolutely turned a blind eye to the issue. How naive could they have been to not realize what was going on? They had NO formal rules about it.Quote:
6. Regarding Selig, the union, and other baseball owners and officials....while they were complicit I have yet to see where they fully realized the full extent of the problem prior to 2003 testing. Maybe they purposely didn't want to dive into and investigate it...i do believe that. But I can't hold them more accountable, or to the save extent as I do the players who did this on their own accord through trainers and other players.
I sense another Houston-Dickay war... take cover!
Um, you realize basically half my post was agreeing with things he said, right? Stop making these unnecessary comments that serve NO purpose whatsoever except to incite argument. Please.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
I am only doing what you do to me all the time.....Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM