A thousand miles from Cooperstown

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...m-cooperstown/

Interesting article on great non-HoF/HoM players.

My post-1900 "All non-HoF/HoM Team":

C - Gene Tenace
1B - Norm Cash
2B - Larry Doyle
3B - Ron Cey
SS - Bert Campaneris
LF - Bob Johnson
CF - Tommy Leach
RF - Bobby Bonds
SP - Rick Reuschel
RP - Dan Quisenberry

My post-1900 "All non-HoF Team":

C - Ted Simmons
1B - Keith Hernandez
2B - Bobby Grich
3B - Ron Santo
SS - Alan Trammell
LF - Tim Raines
CF - Jimmy Wynn
RF - Dwight Evans
SP - Bert Blyleven
RP - Dan Quisenberry

For what its worth, as I see it, these are the best players who are not in the Hall of Fame, by career value. I know nothing about the "HoM", whatever that is (Hall of Misery?), and there are no adjustments for peak value at all. Best players, by position, in order of career value:

C Ted Simmons, Joe Torre, Brian Downing, Bill Freehan

1B Dick Allen, Will Clark, Fred McGriff, Norm Cash, Keith Hernandez

2B Lou Whitaker, Bobby Grich, Willie Randolph

3B Darrel Evans, Ron Santo, Craig Nettles, Stan Hack

SS Bill Dahlen, Alan Trammell, Bert Campaneris, Tony Fernandez

LF Tim Raines, Jose Cruz, Frank Howard, Joe Jackson

CF Reggie Smith, Willie Davis, Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeno

RF Rusty Staub, Dwight Evans, Andre Dawson, Dave Parker

P Bert Blyleven, Tommy John, Jim Kaat, Wilbur Cooper, Luis Tiant

Misc Pete Rose (of course), best player not in the HOF in career value.

Note- I have left out a few of the dead-ballers....Sherry Magee, Van Haltren, Sheckard, etc., I know. Thats because I dont know much about that era and really don't trust the stats. I did include Dahlen because, from everything I can see, he might be the absolute best player not in the Hall, behind Rose. Also, I know that some players played slightly more games at other positions (Smith, Torre, Downing), but I placed them at the more demanding position. Again...no peak considered here.

The Hall of Merit, and it's Plaque Room.

Of the 38 players you listed, 22 of them have been elected to the Hall of Merit, with the odd men out beind Brian Downing, Fred McGriff (not yet eligible), Norm Cash, Bert Campaneris, Tony Fernandez, Jose Cruz, Frank Howard, Willie Davis, Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeno, Rusty Staub, Dave Parker, and the non-Blyleven pitchers. Since the HoM isn't a straight career ranking (although it has some pure career voters, and on the flipside, some pure peak voters), which is what you're using, that likely explains the differences.

Just curious, why did you include Fred McGriff but not Barry Larkin and Roberto Alomar?

So the hall of merit is baseball think factory's Hall of Fame? Or am I off?

Interesting article.

EDIT: Woops just saw Houston's links...Never mind on that first question.

Not one mention of Dale Murphy yet?

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Originally Posted by Pavelb1

Not one mention of Dale Murphy yet?

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Great peak, but little outside of that.

In my rankings of non-HoM inductees, I have Murphy 6th amongst center fielders, behind Tommy Leach, Hugh Duffy, Dom DiMaggio, Jimmy Ryan, and George Van Haltren.

it's a shame ted simmions isn't a hall of famer and yet johnny bench is....compare their numbers....

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Originally Posted by Jeffy25

it's a shame ted simmions isn't a hall of famer and yet johnny bench is....compare their numbers....

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They're not comparable. Bench is better by a decent amount... And that's without factoring in Bench's phenomenal defense to Simmons roughly average defense, which moves the gap from 'decent amount' to "Johnny Bench is the best catcher ever to play in Major League Baseball."

Simmons definitely should be in the Hall, and it is pretty baffling that he's not, but there's simply no comparison to Johnny Bench.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

The Hall of Merit, and it's Plaque Room.

Of the 38 players you listed, 22 of them have been elected to the Hall of Merit, with the odd men out beind Brian Downing, Fred McGriff (not yet eligible), Norm Cash, Bert Campaneris, Tony Fernandez, Jose Cruz, Frank Howard, Willie Davis, Vada Pinson, Cesar Cedeno, Rusty Staub, Dave Parker, and the non-Blyleven pitchers. Since the HoM isn't a straight career ranking (although it has some pure career voters, and on the flipside, some pure peak voters), which is what you're using, that likely explains the differences.

Just curious, why did you include Fred McGriff but not Barry Larkin and Roberto Alomar?

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For obvious reasons. I would think that you would immediately figure that out.

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Originally Posted by Swampdog

For obvious reasons. I would think that you would immediately figure that out.

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The only thing that comes to mind is that you think they're going to get in this year... but I'm not so sure of that.

Why Keith Hernandez and not John Olerud?

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Originally Posted by Coach Owens

Why Keith Hernandez and not John Olerud?

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Because Hernandez was better. :)

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Because Hernandez was better. :)

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How?

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Because Hernandez was better. :)

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A lot better.

Btw, for career value of non-HOF'ers, I have Murphy behind Smith, Davis, Pinson, Cedeno, Al Oliver, and Jimmy Wynn. About the same career value as Brett Butler, actually.

Bench was better than Simmons.

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Originally Posted by Coach Owens

How?

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The simplest answer is that Hernandez is the best defensive first basemen ever and while Olerud was very good, he wasn't Hernandez.

The more complicated answer would also include their eras. The 1980's were a lot harder to dominate, while the 1990's were much easier. Hernandez placed in the top 8 in his league in OPS+ 6 times (3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8), for example, while Olerud had 3 top 10 finishes (1, 3, 10).

Swampdog, was my "guess" at why you didn't include Larkin and Alomar correct?

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Originally Posted by Swampdog

Btw, for career value of non-HOF'ers, I have Murphy behind Smith, Davis, Pinson, Cedeno, Al Oliver, and Jimmy Wynn. About the same career value as Brett Butler, actually.

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Butler was very underrated. I have Murphy 6th, then Cedeno 7th, and Butler 8th. Murphy's higher than them both because of his much better peak, but it's all close. In overall career value I actually see Butler better than both of them, but my rankings aren't just straight career value.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

The simplest answer is that Hernandez is the best defensive first basemen ever and while Olerud was very good, he wasn't Hernandez.

The more complicated answer would also include their eras. The 1980's were a lot harder to dominate, while the 1990's were much easier. Hernandez placed in the top 8 in his league in OPS+ 6 times (3, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8), for example, while Olerud had 3 top 10 finishes (1, 3, 10).

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That was pretty simple all right. I might add that, in addition to being a greater defensive player, Hernandez was a better baserunner (faster) and, a better offensive player overall, albeit only slightly.

In roughly the same number of at bats (Olerud led 7592 to 7370), Olerud grounded into more than 70 more double plays (232-161). In 17 seasons, Hernandez hit 60 triples, while Olerud managed only 13, also in 17 seasons.

Hernandez stole 98 bases in 161 attempts (60% success rate), and Olerud somehow managed 11 steals in 25 attempts(44%).

Olerud created 6.8 runs a game to 6.3 for Hernandez. But when you adjust those numbers for context (league, park, etc), Hernandez edges ahead by 6.6 to 6.4. Some of their numbers are similar, but Hernandez was clearly a better player.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Swampdog, was my "guess" at why you didn't include Larkin and Alomar correct?


Butler was very underrated. I have Murphy 6th, then Cedeno 7th, and Butler 8th. Murphy's higher than them both because of his much better peak, but it's all close. In overall career value I actually see Butler better than both of them, but my rankings aren't just straight career value.

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Well, no, not really. I was updating an old list (career value), comparing it to a newer list, and I overlooked McGriffs retirement year. You are right, of course, he isn't yet eligible so he shouldn't be on that list. Speed error.

On the other hand, I expect Larkin to get in the Hall quickly, while Alomar will have to wait a while, but makes it eventually.

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Originally Posted by Swampdog

On the other hand, I expect Larkin to get in the Hall quickly, while Alomar will have to wait a while, but makes it eventually.

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Heh, I actually see it the other way around...mostly because of Alomar's defensive reputation and his Gold Gloves.

Of course, the BBWAA vote when it comes to middle infielders is pretty baffling, so I don't really have any idea with how it's going to come out. Alan Trammell's career was roughly equivalent to Larkin, and better than many players both in the Hall and on the ballot, and he can't crack 20%...It took Ryne Sandberg a couple years to get in...Lou Whitaker dropped off the ballot after one chance...Really weird stuff.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Heh, I actually see it the other way around...mostly because of Alomar's defensive reputation and his Gold Gloves.

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I would be amazed if Alomar makes the HOF before Larkin. I could be entirely wrong, but I think that Alomar will be penalized for "the incident". For anyone who doesn't remember, in 1996, Alomar spit into the face of umpire John Hirschbeck after he was called out on strikes, and ejected from the game. After the game, Alomar claimed that it wasn't his fault, and that Hirschbeck has been a bitter man since his 8 year old son died.

While Alomar did eventually apologize to Hirschbeck, he was castigated in the press (rightfully, I think) for his demeaning actions towards the umpire.

In my view, spitting in another mans face is the ultimate misconduct, to put it mildly. When his HOF vote looms, this will be revisited time and time again, I'm sure. I think that Alomar makes the HOF eventually, but I expect he will have to wait a while.

Yeah. Who knows though, really. The BBWAA are a funny crowd.