The guys been horrific for at least three straight years. Why not sign Andruw Jones if you're looking for this. More upside IMO with Jones.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wilkebr01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jonesan01.shtml
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The guys been horrific for at least three straight years. Why not sign Andruw Jones if you're looking for this. More upside IMO with Jones.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/w/wilkebr01.shtml
http://www.baseball-reference.com/j/jonesan01.shtml
I dunno about that. Wilkerson's been better over the last 2 years than Jones has...by far. Either way, it's a minor league deal I'm assuming, so no harm, no foul. It doesn't cost anything and it's not like they're going to give the guy a ton of playing time or anything.
yep, minor league deal. Depth move. Maybe McAnulty wasn't the depth they wanted? :)
Actual links: http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/0...x-sign-br.html
http://soxanddawgs.com/2009/02/03/re...rad-wilkerson/
i dunno...by fars a stretch. both have been horrific. i think jones could have been had for the same deal, thats all. I prefer Jones myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Wilkerson was good in 2007. Well, not good but slightly above replacement level. In 2008, he was about one win below replacement. Jones was better in 2007 because of defense and more playing time, and not as bad in 2008 purely because he didn't play enough. Jones had an 88 OPS+ in 2007, and a disturbing 34 in 2008. Wilkerson was at 104 and 70.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
And I'm pretty sure Jones is seeking a major league deal.
Again, it's just a minor league deal for depth. I doubt Wilkerson even plays in the majors with Boston except in the case of injury.
are you really looking to debate which sh!t smells better? they both were bad...i just think Jones plays better defense and has more upside.
I'm not disputing that (although I do disagree, i think Jones is done, offensively and defensively). I'm just saying that:Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
a) This doesn't prevent them from signing Jones.
b) It's just a depth move that costs nothing.
c) You say "Why not sign Jones if you're looking for this?" Because Jones doesn't give minor league depth. He wants a major league deal.
Sure it doesn't 'prevent' them from signing Jones, but there are only so many roster spots. With Rocco and now Brad, i doubt theres room for Jones. I think Jones is a depth move that will cost nothing, and maybe you're right, maybe he wants a major league deal. I dunno...hard to believe he thinks he'll get one. I guess if he waits long enough someone may bite.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Wilkerson signed a minor league contract. He doesn't take up a roster spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
lol...point is with rocco there is no room for Jones on the MLB club, and Jones does take up a roster spot on the minor league team of which he plays for. How many aging OF's do you think they can put down there?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I'm not sure why you're so deadset on Andruw Jones. Kotsay and Baldelli are the backup outfielders in the bigs. Wilkerson is on a minor league deal, along with numerous other players, a good amount of whom will be weeded out in spring training, none of whom take up any space for the big league team. Andruw Jones isn't likely to settle for a deal that puts him into the minor leagues and doesn't guarantee him a spot on the 40-man roster. In fact, I'm prettty sure that signing Jones requires him to be placed on the 40 man because he's still under contract. Signing Wilkerson has no effect on any potential Jones signing, but I doubt the Red Sox go after Jones at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
From January 23:
Quote:
Boras said that eight teams have expressed interest in Jones, adding that he will not accept a minor league contract or a minimum-salaried MLB deal
man, you wish to argue everything;
who said deadset? I merely said he's low risk / high reward and i believe more upside than Wilkerson.Quote:
I'm not sure why you're so deadset on Andruw Jones.
A) I'm positive his agent would say that Jones won't accept a minor league deal, thanks for posting the quote.Quote:
Andruw Jones isn't likely to settle for a deal that puts him into the minor leagues and doesn't guarantee him a spot on the 40-man roster. In fact, I'm prettty sure that signing Jones requires him to be placed on the 40 man because he's still under contract.
B) Your quote however contradicts what you are 'pretty sure' of, that he MUST sign a deal that puts him on the 40-man.
Yes it does. Common sense tells you theres only so many roster spots and only so many aging OFs they want to bring to spring training.Quote:
Signing Wilkerson has no effect on any potential Jones signing, but I doubt the Red Sox go after Jones at all.
I've already said, maybe they explored Jones and he refused a minor league deal. Maybe they didn't want to wait any longer to see if they could get him. We don't know....I'm merely saying that I'd prefer Jones over Wilkerson and hope they explored it. That is all. :rolleyes:
If Wilkerson rebounds magically to his Montreal level, then this is good. Or even his 2007 level, he was not horrible. I don't think we need so many OFers, but we are not losing anything with Brad
I just think you're blowing the Wilkerson signing out of proportion. It's really meaningless and all it does is provide depth.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
No, not necessarily. And, besides, I'm "pretty sure", not "positive" on that.Quote:
B) Your quote however contradicts what you are 'pretty sure' of, that he MUST sign a deal that puts him on the 40-man.
Teams sign boatloads of minor league contracts over the offseason. A huge portion of them get cut during spring training. The Red Sox have signed Wilkerson, Paul McAnulty, and Chip Ambres this offseason. They have Jeff Bailey, Jon Van Every, and Chris Carter, as well, and likely will sign some more guys.Quote:
Yes it does. Common sense tells you theres only so many roster spots and only so many aging OFs they want to bring to spring training.
Fine. As I said, It just seems to me that you're overreacting to the "consequences" of signing a player to a minor league deal.Quote:
I've already said, maybe they explored Jones and he refused a minor league deal. Maybe they didn't want to wait any longer to see if they could get him. We don't know....I'm merely saying that I'd prefer Jones over Wilkerson and hope they explored it. That is all. :rolleyes:
I think you overreacted to my reaction. Read my first post lol. its merely a question that could have easily been responded to with: "maybe jones won't sign a minor league deal"...which i've agreed with.:rolleyes:Quote:
Fine. As I said, It just seems to me that you're overreacting to the "consequences" of signing a player to a minor league deal.
apparently your opinions are OK, while others are overreactions???
arrghh!!
Every thread? EVERY thread?!?
ARGGH!
tell me about it.:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
everything i post i feel i have to go on the defensive about, regardless of how trivial it gets critiqued. apparently I was 'overreacting'???
You're acting baffled by the signing, like it's going to hurt the Red Sox, or their chances of signing Andruw Jones, or something. It's just a minor league deal, with no consequences. Where was your thread about signing Chip Ambres? It's the same exact thing. I just don't understand what the big deal is.
And, please, stop turning every discussion/debate into an issue. I'd like to be able to discuss things with you without it becoming personal, or turning into a discussion/debate about the discussion/debate. Can we do that? Thanks.
It never was a big deal, nor was it made to be. In fact, my first three posts clearly leave that impression. It was just an opinion I relayed, which in my opinion as well as others who have PM'd me, you seem to take to extremes in what some feel may be an attempt to incite just this type of argument.Quote:
You're acting baffled by the signing, like it's going to hurt the Red Sox, or their chances of signing Andruw Jones, or something. It's just a minor league deal, with no consequences. Where was your thread about signing Chip Ambres? It's the same exact thing. I just don't understand what the big deal is.
mirror?Quote:
And, please, stop turning every discussion/debate into an issue. I'd like to be able to discuss things with you without it becoming personal, or turning into a discussion/debate about the discussion/debate. Can we do that? Thanks.
mirror?
Yeah. It's real extreme to think that signing Brad Wilkerson to a minor league deal is completely inconsequential, and that the answer to "Why not sign Andruw Jones if you're looking for this?" is that Jones will cost more money plus a roster spot, and "i think jones could have been had for the same deal," isn't necessarily true. I'm really taking an extreme stance here just to incite argument, that's for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
This conversation was perfectly fine until you had to make comments like "man, you wish to argue everything" and "apparently your opinions are OK, while others are overreactions???" Every time I discuss anything with you, it inevitably leads to discussions about the discussion or a discussion about "me", instead of just staying on topic, and I don't understand why you have to make unnecessary comments that are completely unrelated to the topic. If you don't want to discuss the topic, don't. If you do, then do so, but there's no need to make it anything more than it is every single time. For the millionth time, I don't argue for the sake of arguing, and furthermore, I wasn't even "arguing" with you. We were having a perfectly fine back-and-forth discussion on a signing. I have no idea why you have to take every disagreement, no matter how big or small it is, and transform it into something it's not.
:rolleyes:
It takes two to tango.
Obviously, guys we're talking about sports opinions; there's no right answer, no one can predict everything precisely. Both of your ideas an opinions are valid, welcomed, and read by us all. Disagreements and discussions are fine - heck, that's what the forum does.
I would say that if you guys just find yourselves replying to each other, and no one else chiming in...if you can look up a whole page and only see your own multi-quote responses...or, you start to reference other threads and perceived feelings of what the other person is doing...then stop posting for a while. Let someone else chime in. Go post in an RSR thread to give the brain a rest. :) Just for the sake of other readers/contributers.
Not telling anyone what to do, just offering an idea.
Now everyone hug and be nice to each other.
HGM - I would say that this deal has as much significance as the one in this thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthr...ghlight=sabean
in which you took the time to slam the decisions of Sabean. Your tone there, and dickay's here are very similar - questioning the action, but accepting that in the long term it is probably inconsequential.
I think there are clear differences, though, namely that Sabean DID use up a roster spot and started the service time clock for a young prospect, whereas signing a veteran to a minor league contract doesn't block anybody or take up a roster spot and is something every team does MANY times each offseason.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny1234
But, whatever. I stand by what I said that there was no need to escalate this beyond a simple discussion of the move.
lol, thanks for bringing this up kenny. again, in that thread I posted it wasn't a big deal. his exact quote after argument;Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny1234
In this thread, i didn't even say i disagreed with the move, merely that I feel Jones has more upside, and I hope they have exhausted efforts to obtain him on a similar minor league deal. I'd prefer Jones over Wilkerson. I don't see why or how I can be 'overreacting' in that opinion, yet his opinions are not overreactions. I didn't disagree with anything he said in this thread, except for the comment he made about Wilkerson being much better than Jones.Quote:
Disagreeing with a move doesn't mean I think it's a big deal.
HGM, keep hiding behind your 'looking for debate' argument. Its clear you are looking for more than that. You are looking to argue. You have succeeded. I have allowed you to succeed by playing into it. This PM I received says it best, and I apologize to the person who sent it to me, but it fits so well I have to post it;
Quote:
"Hey, don't get bent out of shape by Houston. We all know he is a cynical child who needs to believe he is the smartest person in the room. Therefore he'll argues every opinion as if it is wrong. It is actually hilarious how you feed into it."
see, and then the personal attacks.
Stop it. either discuss baseball, or don't post. Please.
HoustonGM is a poster who likes to get into debates/discussions on here about a lot of topics, and me and him get into it a fair amount...but hello, that's the freaking point of a message board. We argue back and forth, but we don't start personally attacking or insulting each other. Discuss baseball moves, no need to try to start calling people names.
Houston, calm down......
Than I've misinterpretted your tone. I apologize.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
100% incorrect. I'm "arguing" now because I'm sick of every debate turning into an argument beyond the topic being debated. There was absolutely no need for this thread to go beyond a discussion about Brad Wilkerson, Andruw Jones, and the relative consequences of signings. I like to discuss baseball. That's it. It seems YOU are the one looking for an argument, considering every time I discuss baseball with you you have to take the topic beyond with unnecessary comments.Quote:
HGM, keep hiding behind your 'looking for debate' argument. Its clear you are looking for more than that. You are looking to argue. You have succeeded. I have allowed you to succeed by playing into it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
Thank you. The discussion was perfectly fine until the point I mentioned previously. There's no need to make a discussion or a debate more than it is and bring unnecessary crap into it, especially personal attacks.Quote:
Originally Posted by KowboyKoop
I'm perfectly calm. I'm just sick of perfectly fine discussions being derailed by irrelevant nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Redsoxrockies