Let me know if I'm forgetting anybody (all-time rankings)

Cross-posting some posts from All-Time Positional Rankings.

Just to reiterate some points. I've decided to become a voter for Baseball Think Factory's Hall of Merit, and as such, I have to rank basically every eligible player that has a substantial, good career.

I started by ranking the already inducted players at each (non-pitcher) position. My next step is to rank the non-inducted eligible players at each position, after which I will combine all the non-inducted players into a huge rank, which will form the basis of my 15-player ballot come the next election. Every MLB and Negro League player in history that has not been inducted is eligible for consideration. Obviously, I'll only be considering those that had a substantial career AND were good. Thus, Alfredo Griffin won't be ranked by me, because although he has a substantial career, he was clearly not a very good player.

As I said, I'm now on to ranking the non-inducted eligible players. Below are posts from my previous thread in which I posted by rankings of inducted players. I started ranking the non-inducted guys at third base, so below is my ranking of the third basemen. If there's any third basemen I haven't ranked that I may be forgetting, please post them (and just to restate, I'm considering all MLB and Negro League players who last appeared in a game no later than 2004 and isn't already inducted).

If you disagree with any of the rankings, also, feel free to post, as I'm not 100% set with these yet so I'm willing to be persuaded. Of course, if you're going to, please make a good argument. Don't tell me that Pie Traynor "feels better" than Buddy Bell just because Traynor is in the Hall of Fame. That's not an argument. I do, however, wish to hear fair arguments on the rankings as I'm more than open to revising them.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Okay, I've begun ranking the non-HoM players, and now here's where I could use your help. I started at third base:

1. Tommy Leach
2. Ron Cey
3. Buddy Bell
4. Robin Ventura
5. Toby Harrrah
6. Bob Elliott
7. Bus Clarkson
8. Pie Traynor
9. Lave Cross
10. Matt Williams
11. Sal Bando
12. Al Rosen
13. Ned Williamson

I'm also going to rank Tommy Leach with the center fielders, which is probably where he "officially" belongs, although he spent basically equal time at both third and center.

Anyway, what I need your help on is letting me know if you think I've forgotten any third basemen. I'll post the other positions as I get around to them, but we'll start off at third base. So, anybody I've forgotten? Only include players that last played in 2004 or earlier, though, as the more recent players are not yet HoM-eligible.

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Originally Posted by dps

Edgar Martinez last played in 2004, so I guess that he should be on the list. He didn't play a lot of games at 3rd, but the vast majority of his time in the field was there.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I'm keeping Edgar separate, and just mixing him in when I combine each position into an overall ranking (which is what will constitute my ballot for next year's HoM election).

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Changes at third base:

1. Tommy Leach
2. Ron Cey
3. Buddy Bell
4. Robin Ventura
5. Toby Harrrah
6. Bob Elliott
7. Bus Clarkson
8. Pie Traynor
9. Lave Cross
10. Matt Williams
11. Sal Bando
12. Billy Nash
13. Harlond Clift
14. Ned Williamson
15. Larry Gardner
16. Al Rosen

Any thoughts?

here's what first occurred to me when looking at this...and don't take it the wrong way.

After realizing you were ranking all 'non-HOF' players, my first thought was dang, if you could put forth the same dedication and motivation into learning and projecting the stock market, not only would you get wealthy but i'd consider using you for financial advice.

As for my opinion of your ranking, I don't know who half those fockers are and really don't care lol.

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Originally Posted by dickay

After realizing you were ranking all 'non-HOF' players,

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Not ALL. ;)

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my first thought was dang, if you could put forth the same dedication and motivation into learning and projecting the stock market, not only would you get wealthy but i'd consider using you for financial advice.

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I would...if it interested me ;).

Updated third base:

1. Tommy Leach
2. Ron Cey
3. Buddy Bell
4. Robin Ventura
5. Toby Harrrah
6. Bob Elliott
7. Bus Clarkson
8. Pie Traynor
9. Lave Cross
10. Matt Williams
11. Sal Bando
12. Billy Nash
13. Harlond Clift
14. Ned Williamson
15. Larry Gardner
16. Al Rosen
17. Bill Madlock
18. George Kell

And catchers:

1. Gene Tenace
2. Thurman Munson
3. Wally Schang
4. Ernie Lombardi
5. Lance Parrish
6. Elston Howard
7. Darrell Porter
8. Sherm Lollar
9. Rick Ferrell
10. Ray Schalk
11. Benito Santiago

Benito Santiago on the list for catchers, perhaps?

EDIT: Whoops, didn't realize he played a couple games for the Pirates in '05.

Another point stemming from the catchers, I decided to include all the Hall of Fame players that aren't in the HoM in these rankings, even if they're so far below any reasonable threshold (except for Tommy McCarthy who got in for "innovations" and those that got in for their managerial time only). So, there are probably a good amount of catchers better than Ferrell and Schalk, two Hall of Famers, that I'm not ranking.

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Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG

Benito Santiago on the list for catchers, perhaps?

EDIT: Whoops, didn't realize he played a couple games for the Pirates in '05.

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I just noticed on the HoM discussion thread for the 2010 ballot, Benito Santiago and Juan Gonzalez are on the list of first-time eligibles, marked with asterisks, despite playing in 2005. The HoM might have an eligibility rule that I was unaware of that ignores miniscule amounts of playing time.

This rule is in the HoM rules:

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To discount token appearances, a player becomes eligible 5 years after the first time he plays fewer than 10 games in the field or pitches in fewer than 5 games, assuming he never plays in 10/pitches in 5 games again. If he does play in 10/pitch in 5 games later in his career, the HoM ballot committee will determine in which year the player’s HoM eligibility begins.

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and that could be interpreted as ignoring any seasons of less than 10 games, but it's not specifically clear. Given that Santiago and Gonzalez are listed as eligible now, I'll rank them both.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I just noticed on the HoM discussion thread for the 2010 ballot, Benito Santiago and Juan Gonzalez are on the list of first-time eligibles, marked with asterisks, despite playing in 2005. The HoM might have an eligibility rule that I was unaware of that ignores miniscule amounts of playing time.

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Where would you rank him, if at all, if he was rank-able?

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Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG

Where would you rank him, if at all, if he was rank-able?

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Just ranked him, and he's in last. Schalk and Ferrell were both better defenders, and didn't consume outs to no end.

Fair enough, lol.

I wasn't arguing that he absolutely should be on the list, but he was a solidly above-average catcher for a while and seemed worthy to be mentioned with some of the names lower on that list. He's certainly not better than Parrish or anyone in the top five, but I thought he was solidly lumped with the guys lower on the list.

There's a rather large gap between Darrell Porter and Sherm Lollar. The final four guys - Lollar, Ferrell, Schalk, and Santiago - are tightly bunched.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

There's a rather large gap between Darrell Porter and Sherm Lollar. The final four guys - Lollar, Ferrell, Schalk, and Santiago - are tightly bunched.

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Darrel Porter! I remeber watching him play as a kid, I always felt he was underappreciated, glad to see him be on your list:)

Remind me again, for players who split time between different positions--do they get ranked at the position they spent the most time at, or the position at which they had the most value, or is there some other method to determine where to put them?

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Originally Posted by dps

Remind me again, for players who split time between different positions--do they get ranked at the position they spent the most time at, or the position at which they had the most value, or is there some other method to determine where to put them?

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Generally, the position which they had the most value, hence why Ernie Banks is a shortstop even though he had more time at first base. If you aren't sure, just post and I'll decide for myself. Like with Tommy Leach, I'm not sure how the HoM would place him, so I'm ranking him with both the third basemen and centerfielders. That's irrelevant when it comes to the overall ballot though.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Generally, the position which they had the most value, hence why Ernie Banks is a shortstop even though he had more time at first base. If you aren't sure, just post and I'll decide for myself. Like with Tommy Leach, I'm not sure how the HoM would place him, so I'm ranking him with both the third basemen and centerfielders. That's irrelevant when it comes to the overall ballot though.

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I was thinking about Brian Downing, who started as a catcher. He played several hundred games at catcher and several hundred more in the outfield, but was mostly a DH. I'm not sure which of the outfield positions he played at most--probably LF--or at which fielding position he had the most value. I am pretty sure that he was a better player than the bottom tier of catchers that you've listed, but I don't think he really belongs with the catchers.

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Originally Posted by dps

I was thinking about Brian Downing, who started as a catcher. He played several hundred games at catcher and several hundred more in the outfield, but was mostly a DH. I'm not sure which of the outfield positions he played at most--probably LF--or at which fielding position he had the most value. I am pretty sure that he was a better player than the bottom tier of catchers that you've listed, but I don't think he really belongs with the catchers.

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According to baseball-reference, Downing played 735 games at LF, 675 at C, and 824 at DH, along with 43 in RF and 8 at 3B.

I'd put Downing in with left fielders. He only had 3 full seasons as a catcher - 1975, 1978, and 1979...(and was mostly a catcher in 1976, but only played 104 games total), and only 1979 was particularly good.

He was, as you say, a better player than the bottom tier of catchers there...far better.

First base:

1. Tony Perez
2. Fred McGriff
3. Ben Taylor
4. Norm Cash
5. Orlando Cepeda
6. Don Mattingly
7. Jack Fournier
8. Frank Chance
9. Mark Grace
10. Ed Konetchy
11. Jim Bottomley
12. Steve Garvey
13. George Kelly

Unlike catcher and third base, first base has some guys that rank higher than a few HoM inductees for me. Below is an overall first base ranking, with the non-HoM inductees in bold:

1. Lou Gehrig
2. Jimmie Foxx
3. Cap Anson
4. Dan Brouthers
5. Johnny Mize
6. Roger Connor
7. Hank Greenberg
8. Mark McGwire
9. Eddie Murray
10. Willie McCovey
11. Buck Leonard
12. Harmon Killebrew
13. Mule Suttles
14. Keith Hernandez
15. Will Clark
16. Joe Start
17. Fred McGriff
18. Tony Perez
19. George Sisler
    
20. Ben Taylor
21. Bill Terry
22. Norm Cash
23. Orlando Cepeda
24. Jake Beckley
25. Don Mattingly
26. Jack Fournier
27. Frank Chance
28. Mark Grace
29. Ed Konetchy
30. Jim Bottomley
31. Steve Garvey
32. George Kelly

Second base:

1. Roberto Alomar
2. Bill Monroe
3. Fred Dunlap
4. George Scales
5. Tony Lazzeri
6. Red Schoendienst
7. Larry Doyle
8. Johnny Evers
9. Bill Mazeroski
10. Davey Lopes
11. Frank White

Overall second base list. Non-inductees in bold:

1. Eddie Collins
2. Rogers Hornsby
3. Joe Morgan
4. Nap Lajoie
5. Jackie Robinson
6. Charlie Gehringer
7. Bobby Grich
8. Rod Carew
9. Ryne Sandberg
10. Ross Barnes
11. Frankie Frisch
12. Roberto Alomar
13. Billy Herman
14. Lou Whitaker
15. Joe Gordon
16. Bobby Doerr
17. Bid McPhee
18. Hardy Richardson
19. Cupid Childs
20. Frank Grant
21. Bill Monroe
22. Fred Dunlap
23. Willie Randolph
24. Nellie Fox
25. George Scales
26. Tony Lazzeri
27. Red Schoendienst
28. Larry Doyle
29. Johnny Evers
30. Bill Mazeroski
31. Davey Lopes
32. Frank White

Shortstop:

1. Bert Campaneris
2. Dave Concepcion
3. Phil Rizzuto
4. Johnny Pesky
5. Jim Fregosi
6. Dave Bancroft
7. Rabbit Maranville
8. Dick Bartell
9. Vern Stephens
10. Luis Aparicio
11. Donie Bush
12. Joe Tinker
13. Alvin Dark
14. Travis Jackson

Here is my ranking of inducted shortstops. The top 4 unranked guys - Campaneris, Concepcion, Rizzuto, and Pesky, slot in between Joe Sewell and the last place Dobie Moore in the overall rankings.

Left field:

1. Bob Johnson
2. Albert Belle
3. Jose Cruz
4. Bobby Veach
5. Roy White
6. George Foster
7. George Burns
8. Frank Howard
9. Jim Rice
10. Lou Brock
11. Heinie Manush
12. Chick Hafey

The further I get into this, the more I'm seeing just how terrible some of the HoF selections were.

The worst 3 left fielders I ranked are in the HoF. The worst shortstop. The worst third basemen. 2 of the 4 worst second basemen. The worst first basemen. 2 of the 4 worst catchers. Eek.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

The further I get into this, the more I'm seeing just how terrible some of the HoF selections were.

The worst 3 left fielders I ranked are in the HoF. The worst shortstop. The worst third basemen. 2 of the 4 worst second basemen. The worst first basemen. 2 of the 4 worst catchers. Eek.

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You're right - the Veteran's Committee added a lot of mediocre players. Other than that, the only problem I see with the Hall is that when you move from the great to the merely very good the differences between players become small enough that a simple look at statistics is not sufficient to describe why people think one player belongs in the HOF and another doesn't.

For example, Lou Brock is ranked near the bottom of the left fielders that you choose to rank. Lou Brock is in the Hall for two reasons. First, he made it to 3,000 hits - I agree that this is an arbitrary standard but it has some historical relevance. Second, he 'changed' the game - he was a key to bringing back the stolen base as a primary offensive weapon and is the logical predecessor to a player like Tim Raines. Was he as good as Raines - no, is he important in the context of history - I say yes. And that makes him a Hall of Famer in my mind (and that is even within the relatively small Hall that I would prefer).

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

You're right - the Veteran's Committee added a lot of mediocre players.

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Thankyou Frankie Frisch.

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

For example, Lou Brock is ranked near the bottom of the left fielders that you choose to rank. Lou Brock is in the Hall for two reasons. First, he made it to 3,000 hits - I agree that this is an arbitrary standard but it has some historical relevance. Second, he 'changed' the game - he was a key to bringing back the stolen base as a primary offensive weapon and is the logical predecessor to a player like Tim Raines. Was he as good as Raines - no, is he important in the context of history - I say yes. And that makes him a Hall of Famer in my mind (and that is even within the relatively small Hall that I would prefer).

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Yeah, I understand why Lou Brock is in the Hall. Although I don't really think he changed the game, he was just the most prolific of basestealers (albeit not the best, as he got caught stealing a ton as well).

What I'm ranking these players for though, the Hall of Merit, explicitly rejects judging players based on things outside of their performance.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

What I'm ranking these players for though, the Hall of Merit, explicitly rejects judging players based on things outside of their performance.

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I appreciate that - but then you use those rankings as the basis for the statement that there have been some terrible HOF selections. To me, that implies that either the Hall made a mistake - which needs to be judged in the context of all the reasons that a player would be selected.

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

I appreciate that - but then you use those rankings as the basis for the statement that there have been some terrible HOF selections. To me, that implies that either the Hall made a mistake - which needs to be judged in the context of all the reasons that a player would be selected.

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Right. I wouldn't call Lou Brock a mistake, although I wouldn't vote for him.

Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush, Travis Jackson, though? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Right. I wouldn't call Lou Brock a mistake, although I wouldn't vote for him.

Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush, Travis Jackson, though? Absolutely.

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Definitely - the Veteran's Committee wasn't considering performance at all when they made their choices. I would probably value issues other than performance more than you would - but a player should be very good before they are even considered on any other metric. I would actually argue that when considering a player for the Hall - their rank relative to the Hall should only be assessed relative to the regular selections. Just ignore the VC entirely. A player shouldn't get in for being better than a whole bunch of mistakes.

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

Definitely - the Veteran's Committee wasn't considering performance at all when they made their choices. I would probably value issues other than performance more than you would - but a player should be very good before they are even considered on any other metric. I would actually argue that when considering a player for the Hall - their rank relative to the Hall should only be assessed relative to the regular selections. Just ignore the VC entirely. A player shouldn't get in for being better than a whole bunch of mistakes.

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The problem, though, is that the VC has corrected some of the BBWAA's mistakes. For example, Arky Vaughan and Johnny Mize.

Center fielders:

1. Tommy Leach
2. Hugh Duffy
3. Dom DiMaggio
4. Jimmy Ryan
5. George Van Haltren
6. Dale Murphy
7. Cesar Cedeno
8. Brett Butler
9. Fielder Jones
10. Vada Pinson
11. Fred Lynn
12. Kirby Puckett
13. Amos Otis
14. Hack Wilson
15. Willie Davis
16. Al Oliver
17. Ray Lankford
18. Ellis Burks
19. Earle Combs
20. Lloyd Waner

Leach tops both the CF and 3B lists. Again, CF contains two Hall of Famers bringing up the rear.

Here are my inducted rankings. Tommy Leach slots between Andre Dawson and Willard Brown. Hugh Duffy and Dom DiMaggio follow Brown, ahead of Edd Roush and Cool Papa Bell. The rest follow Bell.

Right field:

1. Gavvy Cravath
2. Bobby Bonds
3. Ken Singleton
4. Mike Tiernan
5. Chuck Klein
6. Kiki Cuyler
7. Dave Parker
8. Jack Clark
9. Rusty Staub
10. Rocky Colavito
11. Harry Hooper
12. Sam Rice
13. Juan Gonzalez
14. Ross Youngs

My inducted right fielders ranking. Cravath and Bonds slot between Willie Keeler and Reggie Smith. Ken Singleton slots between Smith and Sam Thompson.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Shortstop:

1. Bert Campaneris
2. Dave Concepcion
3. Phil Rizzuto
4. Johnny Pesky
5. Jim Fregosi
6. Dave Bancroft
7. Rabbit Maranville
8. Dick Bartell
9. Vern Stephens
10. Luis Aparicio
11. Donie Bush
12. Joe Tinker
13. Alvin Dark
14. Travis Jackson

Here is my ranking of inducted shortstops. The top 4 unranked guys - Campaneris, Concepcion, Rizzuto, and Pesky, slot in between Joe Sewell and the last place Dobie Moore in the overall rankings.

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I just realized I forgot Barry Larkin! I'll add him in tomorrow. He'll top the unelected group by far, but I'm not yet sure where he'll place overall. In the top 15, probably.

Larkin slots 10th overall, between Joe Cronin and George Wright.

Revised my shortstop rankings, mostly at the top, so below are my new top 15.

1. Honus Wagner
2. John Henry Lloyd
3. Cal Ripken, Jr.
4. Arky Vaughan
5. Luke Appling
6. Robin Yount
7. Barry Larkin
8. George Davis
9. Bill Dahlen
10. Alan Trammell
11. Ozzie Smith
12. Joe Cronin
13. Ernie Banks
14. George Wright
15. Willie Wells

I've roughly ranked the non-inducted pitchers, so here's what I've got for my top 10:

1. Rick Reuschel
2. Luis Tiant
3. David Cone
4. Don Newcombe
5. Tommy Bridges
6. Vic Willis
7. Dick Redding
8. Bucky Walters
9. Addie Joss
10. Dizzy Dean

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I've roughly ranked the non-inducted pitchers, so here's what I've got for my top 10:

1. Rick Reuschel
2. Luis Tiant
3. David Cone
4. Don Newcombe
5. Tommy Bridges
6. Vic Willis
7. Dick Redding
8. Bucky Walters
9. Addie Joss
10. Dizzy Dean

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I might put Tiant ahead of Reuschell, but it's close.

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Originally Posted by dps

I might put Tiant ahead of Reuschell, but it's close.

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It's ridiculously close. I've flip-flopped them a few times.

I'll post my inducted pitcher rankings as the HoM does their rankings of pitchers, beginning soon (which I will be voting in). The pitchers will be broke up into eras.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I've roughly ranked the non-inducted pitchers, so here's what I've got for my top 10:

1. Rick Reuschel
2. Luis Tiant
3. David Cone
4. Don Newcombe
5. Tommy Bridges
6. Vic Willis
7. Dick Redding
8. Bucky Walters
9. Addie Joss
10. Dizzy Dean

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I would place Tiant over Reuschel. Peak or career value. Not sure how you rank Reuschel higher.

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Originally Posted by Swampdog

I would place Tiant over Reuschel. Peak or career value. Not sure how you rank Reuschel higher.

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3,548.3 innings at a 114 ERA+ for Reuschel, to 3,486.3 innings at the same ERA+ for Tiant. ERA+ though doesn't account for Reuschel playing in front of mediocre or worse defenses for most of his career. 3.82 defense-independent ERA for Reuschel to Tiant's 3.94.

Their WARP3's are basically identical: Reuschel's best 3 years were 29.5, basically equivalent to Tiant's 29.2. Tiant's slightly ahead on best 5 years, 45.8 to 44.3, and 7 years, 59.2 to 58.2. Career, Reuschel has a very slight edge 101.2 to 100.6.

Reuschel threw more innings compared to his contemporaries than Tiant did (3 top 10 finishes for Tiant - 6, 7, 8...6 for Reuschel - 4, 7, 7, 7, 8, 9)...Reuschel was the superior fielder.

They're really interchangeable in my opinion. They're going to be next to each other on my HoM ballot.