Let me know if I'm forgetting anybody (all-time rankings)

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Generally, the position which they had the most value, hence why Ernie Banks is a shortstop even though he had more time at first base. If you aren't sure, just post and I'll decide for myself. Like with Tommy Leach, I'm not sure how the HoM would place him, so I'm ranking him with both the third basemen and centerfielders. That's irrelevant when it comes to the overall ballot though.

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I was thinking about Brian Downing, who started as a catcher. He played several hundred games at catcher and several hundred more in the outfield, but was mostly a DH. I'm not sure which of the outfield positions he played at most--probably LF--or at which fielding position he had the most value. I am pretty sure that he was a better player than the bottom tier of catchers that you've listed, but I don't think he really belongs with the catchers.

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Originally Posted by dps

I was thinking about Brian Downing, who started as a catcher. He played several hundred games at catcher and several hundred more in the outfield, but was mostly a DH. I'm not sure which of the outfield positions he played at most--probably LF--or at which fielding position he had the most value. I am pretty sure that he was a better player than the bottom tier of catchers that you've listed, but I don't think he really belongs with the catchers.

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According to baseball-reference, Downing played 735 games at LF, 675 at C, and 824 at DH, along with 43 in RF and 8 at 3B.

I'd put Downing in with left fielders. He only had 3 full seasons as a catcher - 1975, 1978, and 1979...(and was mostly a catcher in 1976, but only played 104 games total), and only 1979 was particularly good.

He was, as you say, a better player than the bottom tier of catchers there...far better.

First base:

1. Tony Perez
2. Fred McGriff
3. Ben Taylor
4. Norm Cash
5. Orlando Cepeda
6. Don Mattingly
7. Jack Fournier
8. Frank Chance
9. Mark Grace
10. Ed Konetchy
11. Jim Bottomley
12. Steve Garvey
13. George Kelly

Unlike catcher and third base, first base has some guys that rank higher than a few HoM inductees for me. Below is an overall first base ranking, with the non-HoM inductees in bold:

1. Lou Gehrig
2. Jimmie Foxx
3. Cap Anson
4. Dan Brouthers
5. Johnny Mize
6. Roger Connor
7. Hank Greenberg
8. Mark McGwire
9. Eddie Murray
10. Willie McCovey
11. Buck Leonard
12. Harmon Killebrew
13. Mule Suttles
14. Keith Hernandez
15. Will Clark
16. Joe Start
17. Fred McGriff
18. Tony Perez
19. George Sisler
    
20. Ben Taylor
21. Bill Terry
22. Norm Cash
23. Orlando Cepeda
24. Jake Beckley
25. Don Mattingly
26. Jack Fournier
27. Frank Chance
28. Mark Grace
29. Ed Konetchy
30. Jim Bottomley
31. Steve Garvey
32. George Kelly

Second base:

1. Roberto Alomar
2. Bill Monroe
3. Fred Dunlap
4. George Scales
5. Tony Lazzeri
6. Red Schoendienst
7. Larry Doyle
8. Johnny Evers
9. Bill Mazeroski
10. Davey Lopes
11. Frank White

Overall second base list. Non-inductees in bold:

1. Eddie Collins
2. Rogers Hornsby
3. Joe Morgan
4. Nap Lajoie
5. Jackie Robinson
6. Charlie Gehringer
7. Bobby Grich
8. Rod Carew
9. Ryne Sandberg
10. Ross Barnes
11. Frankie Frisch
12. Roberto Alomar
13. Billy Herman
14. Lou Whitaker
15. Joe Gordon
16. Bobby Doerr
17. Bid McPhee
18. Hardy Richardson
19. Cupid Childs
20. Frank Grant
21. Bill Monroe
22. Fred Dunlap
23. Willie Randolph
24. Nellie Fox
25. George Scales
26. Tony Lazzeri
27. Red Schoendienst
28. Larry Doyle
29. Johnny Evers
30. Bill Mazeroski
31. Davey Lopes
32. Frank White

Shortstop:

1. Bert Campaneris
2. Dave Concepcion
3. Phil Rizzuto
4. Johnny Pesky
5. Jim Fregosi
6. Dave Bancroft
7. Rabbit Maranville
8. Dick Bartell
9. Vern Stephens
10. Luis Aparicio
11. Donie Bush
12. Joe Tinker
13. Alvin Dark
14. Travis Jackson

Here is my ranking of inducted shortstops. The top 4 unranked guys - Campaneris, Concepcion, Rizzuto, and Pesky, slot in between Joe Sewell and the last place Dobie Moore in the overall rankings.

Left field:

1. Bob Johnson
2. Albert Belle
3. Jose Cruz
4. Bobby Veach
5. Roy White
6. George Foster
7. George Burns
8. Frank Howard
9. Jim Rice
10. Lou Brock
11. Heinie Manush
12. Chick Hafey

The further I get into this, the more I'm seeing just how terrible some of the HoF selections were.

The worst 3 left fielders I ranked are in the HoF. The worst shortstop. The worst third basemen. 2 of the 4 worst second basemen. The worst first basemen. 2 of the 4 worst catchers. Eek.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

The further I get into this, the more I'm seeing just how terrible some of the HoF selections were.

The worst 3 left fielders I ranked are in the HoF. The worst shortstop. The worst third basemen. 2 of the 4 worst second basemen. The worst first basemen. 2 of the 4 worst catchers. Eek.

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You're right - the Veteran's Committee added a lot of mediocre players. Other than that, the only problem I see with the Hall is that when you move from the great to the merely very good the differences between players become small enough that a simple look at statistics is not sufficient to describe why people think one player belongs in the HOF and another doesn't.

For example, Lou Brock is ranked near the bottom of the left fielders that you choose to rank. Lou Brock is in the Hall for two reasons. First, he made it to 3,000 hits - I agree that this is an arbitrary standard but it has some historical relevance. Second, he 'changed' the game - he was a key to bringing back the stolen base as a primary offensive weapon and is the logical predecessor to a player like Tim Raines. Was he as good as Raines - no, is he important in the context of history - I say yes. And that makes him a Hall of Famer in my mind (and that is even within the relatively small Hall that I would prefer).

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

You're right - the Veteran's Committee added a lot of mediocre players.

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Thankyou Frankie Frisch.

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

For example, Lou Brock is ranked near the bottom of the left fielders that you choose to rank. Lou Brock is in the Hall for two reasons. First, he made it to 3,000 hits - I agree that this is an arbitrary standard but it has some historical relevance. Second, he 'changed' the game - he was a key to bringing back the stolen base as a primary offensive weapon and is the logical predecessor to a player like Tim Raines. Was he as good as Raines - no, is he important in the context of history - I say yes. And that makes him a Hall of Famer in my mind (and that is even within the relatively small Hall that I would prefer).

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Yeah, I understand why Lou Brock is in the Hall. Although I don't really think he changed the game, he was just the most prolific of basestealers (albeit not the best, as he got caught stealing a ton as well).

What I'm ranking these players for though, the Hall of Merit, explicitly rejects judging players based on things outside of their performance.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

What I'm ranking these players for though, the Hall of Merit, explicitly rejects judging players based on things outside of their performance.

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I appreciate that - but then you use those rankings as the basis for the statement that there have been some terrible HOF selections. To me, that implies that either the Hall made a mistake - which needs to be judged in the context of all the reasons that a player would be selected.

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

I appreciate that - but then you use those rankings as the basis for the statement that there have been some terrible HOF selections. To me, that implies that either the Hall made a mistake - which needs to be judged in the context of all the reasons that a player would be selected.

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Right. I wouldn't call Lou Brock a mistake, although I wouldn't vote for him.

Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush, Travis Jackson, though? Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Right. I wouldn't call Lou Brock a mistake, although I wouldn't vote for him.

Chick Hafey, Heinie Manush, Travis Jackson, though? Absolutely.

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Definitely - the Veteran's Committee wasn't considering performance at all when they made their choices. I would probably value issues other than performance more than you would - but a player should be very good before they are even considered on any other metric. I would actually argue that when considering a player for the Hall - their rank relative to the Hall should only be assessed relative to the regular selections. Just ignore the VC entirely. A player shouldn't get in for being better than a whole bunch of mistakes.

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

Definitely - the Veteran's Committee wasn't considering performance at all when they made their choices. I would probably value issues other than performance more than you would - but a player should be very good before they are even considered on any other metric. I would actually argue that when considering a player for the Hall - their rank relative to the Hall should only be assessed relative to the regular selections. Just ignore the VC entirely. A player shouldn't get in for being better than a whole bunch of mistakes.

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The problem, though, is that the VC has corrected some of the BBWAA's mistakes. For example, Arky Vaughan and Johnny Mize.

Center fielders:

1. Tommy Leach
2. Hugh Duffy
3. Dom DiMaggio
4. Jimmy Ryan
5. George Van Haltren
6. Dale Murphy
7. Cesar Cedeno
8. Brett Butler
9. Fielder Jones
10. Vada Pinson
11. Fred Lynn
12. Kirby Puckett
13. Amos Otis
14. Hack Wilson
15. Willie Davis
16. Al Oliver
17. Ray Lankford
18. Ellis Burks
19. Earle Combs
20. Lloyd Waner

Leach tops both the CF and 3B lists. Again, CF contains two Hall of Famers bringing up the rear.

Here are my inducted rankings. Tommy Leach slots between Andre Dawson and Willard Brown. Hugh Duffy and Dom DiMaggio follow Brown, ahead of Edd Roush and Cool Papa Bell. The rest follow Bell.