Arbitration Numbers

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2009/0...ation-fig.html

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Ryan Howard: $18MM.  Phillies: $14MM.  Diff: $4MM.
Prince Fielder: $8MM.  Brewers: $6MM.  Diff: $2MM.
Garrett Atkins: $7.95MM.  Rockies: $6.65MM.  Diff: $1.3MM.
Dan Uggla: $5.35MM.  Marlins: $4.4MM.  Diff: $950K.
Justin Duchscherer: $4.6MM.  A's: $3MM.  Diff: $1.6MM.
David Weathers: $4.6MM.  Reds: $3MM.  Diff: $1.6MM.
Zack Greinke: $4.4MM.  Royals $3.4MM.  Diff: $1MM.
Ryan Ludwick: $4.35MM.  Cardinals: $2.8MM.  Diff: 1.55MM.
Justin Verlander: $4.15MM.  Tigers: $3.2MM.  Diff: $950K.
Jeff Francoeur: $3.95MM.  Braves: $2.8MM.  Diff: $1.15MM.
Ryan Zimmerman: $3.9MM.  Nationals: $2.75MM.  Diff: $1.15MM.
Mark Teahen: $3.85MM.  Royals: $3.05MM.  Diff: $800K.
Corey Hart: $3.8MM.  Brewers: $2.7MM.  Diff: $1.1MM.
Mike Jacobs: $3.8MM.  Royals $2.75MM.  Diff: $1.05MM.
Andre Ethier: $3.75MM.  Dodgers: $2.65MM.  Diff: $1.1MM.
Edwin Encarnacion: $3.7MM.  Reds: $2.55MM.  Diff: $1.15MM.
Conor Jackson: $3.65MM.  D'Backs: $2.45MM.  Diff: $1.2MM.
Josh Willingham: $3.6MM.  Nationals: $2.55MM.  Diff: $1.05MM.
Scott Olsen: $3.5MM.  Nationals: $2.5MM.  Diff: $1MM.
Rick Ankiel: $3.3MM.  Cardinals: $2.35MM.  Diff: $950K.
Kelly Johnson: $3.3MM.  Braves: $2.35MM.  Diff: $950K.
Casey Kotchman: $3.25MM.  Braves: $2.475MM.  Diff: $775K.
John Maine: $3MM.  Mets: $2.2MM.  Diff: $800K.
Wandy Rodriguez: $3MM.  Astros: $2.25MM.  Diff: $750K.
Rickie Weeks: $2.8MM.  Brewers: $2MM.  Diff: $800K.
Geoff Geary: $2.1MM.  Astros: $1.425MM.  Diff: $675K.
Brian Bannister: $2.025MM.  Royals: $1.45MM.  Diff: $575K.
Pedro Feliciano: $1.95MM.  Mets: $1.35MM.  Diff: $600K.
Melky Cabrera: $1.7MM.  Yankees: $1.2MM.  Diff: $500K.  UPDATE: signed.
Brian Bruney: $1.55MM.  Yankees: $1.1MM.  Diff: $450K.
Shawn Hill: $775K.  Nationals: $500K.  Diff: $275K.

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On a related topic.

Who are the arbitrators and how do they come to a decision?

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Originally Posted by filihok

On a related topic.

Who are the arbitrators and how do they come to a decision?

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I don't know exactly, but I think it's something like both sides (the team and the player) present their case for why the player is worth the amount both sides have proposed, the arbitrator listens to both sides objectively and comes to a decision on which one is correct.

Thanks, I understand that

I don't understand who the arbitrators are and what process they use to determine, objectively, who is correct

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Originally Posted by filihok

Thanks, I understand that

I don't understand who the arbitrators are and what process they use to determine, objectively, who is correct

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I'd imagine it's probably just judges and similar legal entities. You would probably have a hard time finding a list of who those people specifically are if that's what you mean though. I'd imagine that's kept confidential, but I could be wrong.

http://www.mlb4u.com/wiki/index.php/Arbiters
A few names of the arbiters at the end of the article. As the link says, they are lawyers and college law professors that do arbitration cases in many fields - they aren't specialists in baseball.

My guess (based on my understanding of the procedure in the NHL) on a procedure is that it, like all US law, is based on precedent. They look at who are similar players and what are their salaries - and this is the primary reason that the MLBPA cares about how much each free agent signs for. These contracts form the basis for arbitration awards.

Mets better agree with John Maine's terms... :D

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

My guess (based on my understanding of the procedure in the NHL) on a procedure is that it, like all US law, is based on precedent. They look at who are similar players and what are their salaries - and this is the primary reason that the MLBPA cares about how much each free agent signs for. These contracts form the basis for arbitration awards.

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Well, the free agent contracts have little effect on the arbitration awards. First year arb. players are compared to first year arb. players, and so on.

But yeah, arbitration hearings are no fun, which is why most of the time, the team and player end up negotiating a contract before the hearing. The team will basically trot out all the bad things about the player to get the arbiter to rule in favor of them, while the player has to point out all the good things about himself, and it can get real nasty for the players, who have to suffer through THEIR team "putting them down" so to speak.

well... hers hoping francour loses :(

Howard isn't even worth 10 mill a year. Maybe if he was one of the top 5 at his position it would at least be somewhat reasonable to ask for that. It's sad that he will get at least 14 mill when he's not even a top 35 player in the game.

My favorite arbitration of all time was in 1980, when Oakland second baseman Mike Edwards wanted a raise after his '79 season in which he hit .233, .236, .280, with a relatively poor fielding record as well. He initially asked for a 65K salary for 1980, if memory serves, but the club couldn't see it and offered a much lower contract.

Edwards filed for arbitration, reconsidering his apparent value, and submitted the figure of $50,000, which was, as it turned out, actually LOWER than the figure submitted by the A's ($58,000).

Edwards "won" his case, as the arbitrator choose his figure, and he was paid $50,000 for 1980, his last year in baseball.

I remember that pitcher Mike Flanagan found himself in a similar situation (submitted a lower figure than the club did) a couple years or so later, but I don't recall his result.

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Originally Posted by wahoosamC

Howard isn't even worth 10 mill a year. Maybe if he was one of the top 5 at his position it would at least be somewhat reasonable to ask for that. It's sad that he will get at least 14 mill when he's not even a top 35 player in the game.

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I love to know 34 players that are better than him....give us a list please.

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Originally Posted by skudplayr

I love to know 34 players that are better than him....give us a list please.

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Ranked 47th in VORP last year

http://baseballprospectus.com/statis...php?cid=315099

Only had a WARP3 of 5.4 and there's plenty more than 35 people with a WARP3 higher than that.

Not even a top 20 hitter and when you factor in he plays the least important position, is terrible at it, and is a liability on the bast paths, it all adds up to somebody who isn't a top 35 player.

A-Rod
Pujols
Wright
Tex
HanRam
M. Cabrera
G. Sizemore
Manny
Pedroia
J. Reyes
Beltran
Prince
Vlad
Holliday
C. Jones
B. Phillips
J. Hamilton
R. Braun
J. Morneau
C. Utley
M. Kemp
J. Mauer
B. Upton
E. Longoria
Ar. Ramirez
Ad. Gonzalez
C. Crawford
B. McCann
N. Markakis
R. Martin
B. Roberts

I think that's only 30, but those players are basically more valuable or produce in more categories I guess. People will probably disagree, but I would rather have most of these over Howard (I really don't like him at all, so it could be a bias thing).

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Originally Posted by Swampdog

My favorite arbitration of all time was in 1980, when Oakland second baseman Mike Edwards wanted a raise after his '79 season in which he hit .233, .236, .280, with a relatively poor fielding record as well. He initially asked for a 65K salary for 1980, if memory serves, but the club couldn't see it and offered a much lower contract.

Edwards filed for arbitration, reconsidering his apparent value, and submitted the figure of $50,000, which was, as it turned out, actually LOWER than the figure submitted by the A's ($58,000).

Edwards "won" his case, as the arbitrator choose his figure, and he was paid $50,000 for 1980, his last year in baseball.

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50,000 just to suck. Thats a lot of money for 1980.

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Originally Posted by bucher34

A-Rod
Pujols
Wright
Tex
HanRam
M. Cabrera
G. Sizemore
Manny
Pedroia
J. Reyes
Beltran
Prince
Vlad
Holliday
C. Jones
B. Phillips
J. Hamilton
R. Braun
J. Morneau
C. Utley
M. Kemp
J. Mauer
B. Upton
E. Longoria
Ar. Ramirez
Ad. Gonzalez
C. Crawford
B. McCann
N. Markakis
R. Martin
B. Roberts

I think that's only 30, but those players are basically more valuable or produce in more categories I guess. People will probably disagree, but I would rather have most of these over Howard (I really don't like him at all, so it could be a bias thing).

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HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH

Howard carried the Phillies in September. He may have struggled alot at times in 2008 (which led to a lower statistical output) but he carried this team to the playoffs.

And anyone who thinks that any of those guys on that list minus Mauer, Utley, Hanley, and Pujols are worth more to their team than Howard should never talk about baseball again. Seriously...Matt Kemp? Brian Roberts? You can't be serious. Granted, I know he won't be with the Phillies for much longer and I'm fine with that, but when a headcase like Manny wants $25 mm a year and a guy like Teixiera (who has never won anything and has not produced the runs, or came through in the clutch, like Howard has) gets $200 million, a one year deal between $14-$18 mm is fine.

Come 2010, he'll be on the Red Sox or Angels and the Phillies will have a Clay Bucholz or Nick Adenhart.

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Originally Posted by wahoosamC

Howard isn't even worth 10 mill a year. Maybe if he was one of the top 5 at his position it would at least be somewhat reasonable to ask for that. It's sad that he will get at least 14 mill when he's not even a top 35 player in the game.

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According to Win Values, his 2008 was worth $14.1 million. Of course, he's been on a steep downward trend since 2006...

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Originally Posted by skudplayr

Howard carried the Phillies in September. He may have struggled alot at times in 2008 (which led to a lower statistical output) but he carried this team to the playoffs.

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See, in baseball, there's more than one month to the season. Yes, he had a fantastic September. He had an okay May and a good July. But the other three months? Well, in April, he was downright putrid. He wasn't much better than that in June, and in August, he was poor.

If you're going to credit him with "carrying them into the playoffs", you need to give him an equal demerit for being ridiculously terrible in April, which is part of the reason why they were in a tight playoff race come September.

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And anyone who thinks that any of those guys on that list minus Mauer, Utley, Hanley, and Pujols are worth more to their team than Howard should never talk about baseball again

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Ryan Howard is absolutely not a top-5 player.

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Seriously...Matt Kemp? Brian Roberts? You can't be serious.

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Matt Kemp, maybe not, but going forward, he's likely to be better. Brian Roberts? Absolutely. Incredibly underrated player.

Just going through that list, every player on there had an obviously better 2008 than Howard except Prince Fielder, Brandon Phillips, Matt Kemp, and Carl Crawford, and it's razor-thin between him and those guys.

In FanGraph's Value Wins, he comes in around the 65th spot, tied with Miguel Cabrera and Cristian Guzman. And I know you're going to say "What? Cristian Guzman? Haha what a joke." But when nearly every advanced stat agrees, it's probably time to reevaluate your position. Howard, despite his gaudy HR and RBI totals, was simply not an MVP-caliber player, or remotely close to it, in 2008. He was barely a top-10 first basemen in the MLB, let alone a top 5 player - Pujols, Berkman, Teixeira, Youkilis, Adrian Gonzalez, and Morneau were all better and than it gets really close with Fielder, Cabrera, Delgado, Pena, and Howard.

Thinking that Howard was a top-notch player in 2008 is just living in the Dark Ages where we know nothing about on-base percentage, position, baserunning, or defense. Howard was good at one thing and one thing only in 2008 - hitting home runs.

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and a guy like Teixiera (who has never won anything and has not produced the runs, or came through in the clutch, like Howard has)

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:eek: WHAT? Holy hell. I don't even know how to respond to this. Ted Williams and Ernie Banks never "won anything" either. You know why? Because baseball is a team sport, and TEAMS win, not individual players.

He hasn't produced the runs like Howard has? Once again, are we somehow back in the Dark Ages where RBI's are the only thing that exists? (Funnily enough, in the "Dark Ages" of the 19th century, most people in baseball rejected the RBI statistic).

"Came through in the clutch"? What's "in the clutch" to you? How about with RISP? Teixeira, for his career, has hit .324/.442/.618 in such situations. Howard? .282/.427/.582. Late and close? Tex, .282/.379/.555 to Howard's .247/.394/.521. You're right. He hasn't came through in the clutch like Howard has. He's been better.

Teixeira is Ryan Howard except a switch hitter with excellent contact skills and Gold Glove defense. It's not close who the better player is.

Game, set, match.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

According to Win Values, his 2008 was worth $14.1 million. Of course, he's been on a steep downward trend since 2006...


See, in baseball, there's more than one month to the season. Yes, he had a fantastic September. He had an okay May and a good July. But the other three months? Well, in April, he was downright putrid. He wasn't much better than that in June, and in August, he was poor.

If you're going to credit him with "carrying them into the playoffs", you need to give him an equal demerit for being ridiculously terrible in April, which is part of the reason why they were in a tight playoff race come September.


Ryan Howard is absolutely not a top-5 player.


Matt Kemp, maybe not, but going forward, he's likely to be better. Brian Roberts? Absolutely. Incredibly underrated player.

Just going through that list, every player on there had an obviously better 2008 than Howard except Prince Fielder, Brandon Phillips, Matt Kemp, and Carl Crawford, and it's razor-thin between him and those guys.

In FanGraph's Value Wins, he comes in around the 65th spot, tied with Miguel Cabrera and Cristian Guzman. And I know you're going to say "What? Cristian Guzman? Haha what a joke." But when nearly every advanced stat agrees, it's probably time to reevaluate your position. Howard, despite his gaudy HR and RBI totals, was simply not an MVP-caliber player, or remotely close to it, in 2008. He was barely a top-10 first basemen in the MLB, let alone a top 5 player - Pujols, Berkman, Teixeira, Youkilis, Adrian Gonzalez, and Morneau were all better and than it gets really close with Fielder, Cabrera, Delgado, Pena, and Howard.

Thinking that Howard was a top-notch player in 2008 is just living in the Dark Ages where we know nothing about on-base percentage, position, baserunning, or defense. Howard was good at one thing and one thing only in 2008 - hitting home runs.


:eek: WHAT? Holy hell. I don't even know how to respond to this. Ted Williams and Ernie Banks never "won anything" either. You know why? Because baseball is a team sport, and TEAMS win, not individual players.

He hasn't produced the runs like Howard has? Once again, are we somehow back in the Dark Ages where RBI's are the only thing that exists? (Funnily enough, in the "Dark Ages" of the 19th century, most people in baseball rejected the RBI statistic).

"Came through in the clutch"? What's "in the clutch" to you? How about with RISP? Teixeira, for his career, has hit .324/.442/.618 in such situations. Howard? .282/.427/.582. Late and close? Tex, .282/.379/.555 to Howard's .247/.394/.521. You're right. He hasn't came through in the clutch like Howard has. He's been better.

Teixeira is Ryan Howard except a switch hitter with excellent contact skills and Gold Glove defense. It's not close who the better player is.

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Well said, did all my work for me. Thanks.

Howard wasn't even the most valuable player in his own infield...

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Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG

Howard wasn't even the most valuable player in his own infield...

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He wasn't even the second most valuable player in his own infield.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

He wasn't even the second most valuable player in his own infield.

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Oh, I know. Rollins and Utley were both more valuable than he was.