One question that im curious about, why is Will Clark rated higher than George Sisler who batted over .400 twice?
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One question that im curious about, why is Will Clark rated higher than George Sisler who batted over .400 twice?
Sisler's an odd case because, at his peak, he was amazing. I have him as the best first basemen in the AL every year from 1916 to 1922. However, he missed 1923 with a severe case of sinusitis and was never the same player again. He still played full time from 1924 to the end of his career, but was a poor hitter for a first basemen. According to Dan Rosenheck's WARP, his career score is 45.9, a mere .2 wins above the total of his best 7 years, which was 45.7.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
Clark had a smaller peak. I have him as the best first basemen in the NL 3 times - 1988, 1989, and 1991. However, Clark has more value outside of his peak than Sisler had, which leads me to rank him over Sisler. It should be noted that from 14-17 (Keith Hernandez, Clark, Joe Start, and Sisler), there's very little separating them.
Second base:
- Eddie Collins
- Rogers Hornsby
- Joe Morgan
- Nap Lajoie
- Jackie Robinson
- Charlie Gehringer
- Bobby Grich
- Rod Carew
- Ryne Sandberg
- Ross Barnes
- Frankie Frisch
- Billy Herman
- Lou Whitaker
- Joe Gordon
- Bobby Doerr
- Bid McPhee
- Cupid Childs
- Hardy Richardson
- Frank Grant
- Willie Randolph
- Nellie Fox
I'd rank Hornsby and Barnes lower--Hornsby's defense sucked, and Barnes had a short career. I'd move McPhee up a bit I think, but I'm not sure how much.
Hornsby's bat was phenomenal though. I can't see ranking him any lower than 2nd. I don't think his defense "sucked." It certainly wasn't good, but it was tolerable with that bat.Quote:
Originally Posted by dps
Barnes had a short career but his peak was phenomenal.
No Roberto Alomar in the top 20 at 2B? :eek:
Edit: Never mind - memo to self: read the ground rules. They're usually found on the first page of the thread.
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by actionjackson
If I wind up voting in the coming year's HoM election, my top 2, I presume, in some order, will be Barry Larkin and Roberto Alomar. I haven't started looking closely yet at the non-inductees, though.
Shortstop was the hardest position to deal with so far. It had the greatest number of Negro Leaguers, with John Henry Lloyd, Home Run Johnson, Dick Lundy, Dobie Moore, and Willie Wells. It had a guy in the HoM more for his undocumented 1850's/1860's work than his 1870's, as he was an old player in his decline phase by the time major leagues like the National Association were established, in Dickey Pearce, and it has a shortstop/pitcher hybrid in John Ward, plus oddities like the extreme peak of Hughie Jennings, and the Sisleresque career of Ernie Banks.
- Honus Wagner
- John Henry Lloyd
- Cal Ripken, Jr.
- Arky Vaughan
- George Davis
- Bill Dahlen
- Robin Yount
- Luke Appling
- Joe Cronin
- George Wright
- Alan Trammell
- Ozzie Smith
- Ernie Banks
- Willie Wells
- Home Run Johnson
- Pee Wee Reese
- Lou Boudreau
- Bobby Wallace
- Jack Glasscock
- Joe Sewell
- Hughie Jennings
- John Ward
- Dickey Pearce
- Dick Lundy
- Dobie Moore
I'd rank Smith and Glasscock higher.
Catcher:
- Josh Gibson
- Johnny Bench
- Yogi Berra
- Gary Carter
- Gabby Hartnett
- Bill Dickey
- Carlton Fisk
- Mickey Cochrane
- Deacon White
- Buck Ewing
- Roy Campanella
- Louis Santop
- Ted Simmons
- Cal McVey
- Bill Freehan
- Joe Torre
- Charlie Bennett
- Roger Bresnahan
- Quincy Trouppe
- Biz Mackey
Roger Bresnahan; 18th on the list, but #1 in safety :D
1 and a half gold stars if somebody gets this.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
I got it right away. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
Oh I know you did, I wonder if somebody will get it without the powers of Wiki. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Left field:
- Ted Williams
- Stan Musial
- Rickey Henderson
- Ed Delahanty
- Carl Yastrzemski
- Tim Raines
- Jesse Burkett
- Al Simmons
- Fred Clarke
- Billy Williams
- Monte Irvin
- Willie Stargell
- Sherry Magee
- Charlie Keller
- Jimmy Sheckard
- Goose Goslin
- Zack Wheat
- Joe Kelley
- Minnie Minoso
- Joe Medwick
- Charley Jones
- Ralph Kiner
- Harry Stovey
pretty solid LF list. I wonder who is going to be up in arms about Raines being so high.
Raines is REALLY that good, and it's a real shame that he's being royally snubbed by the BBWAA.
When the HoM did their rankings, Raines placed 5th, behind Teddy Ballgame, Stan the Man, Delahanty, and Yaz (Rickey had yet to be inducted but would've surely placed 3rd). 16 voters placed him either 4th or 5th. A total of 6 voters placed him at 7, 8, or 9...the 9 being the lowest he was placed.
Ive wondered myself about why they overlook him, is it because he is still cast in Rickey Hendersons shadow?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
It's plenty of reasons. Rickey's one of them. Another is that he didn't reach any "important" milestones, like 3,000 hits (nevermind the fact that he reached base more than Tony Gwynn did!). Also, people forget how great he was at his peak. In the 1980's, he was the best leadoff hitter in the NL, and neck and neck with Henderson. Henderson, obviously, sustained that production longer, while Raines settled into a more of a support role, putting the image of the great Raines at his peak in the back of people's minds. A lot of how the "view" of a player is is shaped by the shape of a player's career. Had Raines peaked in his early 30's instead of early 20's, and played as a roleplayer through his 20's, he might be getting more support simply because the greatness is more fresh in peoples' minds. There's also the fact that he peaked in Montreal and thus didn't get as much exposure as he would've had he peaked elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
You know, I find it really funny, that the people that scoff at "statheads" for "waiting for the 3 run homer", and not "appreciating the little things", and not appreciating "hustle", and all that crap...are the same people that think Jim Rice is a Hall of Famer and Tim Raines isn't. That part baffles me.
I would put Raines ahead of Yaz, and maybe Delahanty, and I might even put Henderson ahead of Musial. I'd probably move Williams down a couple spots, and move Wheat and Minoso up 1 or 2.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I had Raines ahead of Yaz at first, but Yaz's peak was superior, and he had more career value.Quote:
Originally Posted by dps
I can't see that.Quote:
and I might even put Henderson ahead of Musial.
Billy, I'm assuming?Quote:
I'd probably move Williams down a couple spots, and move Wheat and Minoso up 1 or 2.
Yeah, I guess I should have been more specific, but I figured no-one would think that I'd move Ted Williams down a couple of spots.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Though I'll move him down 1 once Bonds get into the HoM.
Center field:
- Ty Cobb
- Willie Mays
- Tris Speaker
- Mickey Mantle
- Oscar Charleston
- Joe DiMaggio
- Turkey Stearnes
- Cristobal Torriente
- Billy Hamilton
- Jim O'Rourke
- Paul Hines
- Duke Snider
- Larry Doby
- George Gore
- Richie Ashburn
- Pete Hill
- Alejandro Oms
- Max Carey
- Jimmy Wynn
- Earl Averill
- Lip Pike
- Pete Browning
- Andre Dawson
- Willard Brown
- Edd Roush
- Cool Papa Bell
Does this list rank Dawson where he is based on the time that he played centerfield (only through 1983)?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
No. Each of these lists rank players based on their overall contributions. They're just grouped at the position that they accumulated the most value at.Quote:
Originally Posted by BINGLEBOP
OK, that makes sense.
Right fielders:
- Babe Ruth
- Hank Aaron
- Mel Ott
- Frank Robinson
- Paul Waner
- Pete Rose
- Al Kaline
- Sam Crawford
- Reggie Jackson
- Roberto Clemente
- Tony Gwynn
- King Kelly
- Joe Jackson
- Harry Heilmann
- Elmer Flick
- Enos Slaughter
- Dave Winfield
- Dwight Evans
- Willie Keeler
- Reggie Smith
- Sam Thompson
Now it's time to figure out what to do with pitchers, and to start ranking the non-HoM guys.
Like the CF rankings, nice to see Charleston and Stearnes get some recognition along with all the other Negro Leaguer's you've listed in the rankings.
I hate to say it, but I think you have Clemente too high.
Him and Gwynn could easily be flip-flopped. I can't see ranking him any lower than 12th, though, maybe 13th if you're an extreme peak ranker and put Shoeless Joe above him.Quote:
Originally Posted by dps
Okay, I've begun ranking the non-HoM players, and now here's where I could use your help. I started at third base:
- Tommy Leach
- Ron Cey
- Buddy Bell
- Robin Ventura
- Toby Harrrah
- Bob Elliott
- Bus Clarkson
- Pie Traynor
- Lave Cross
- Matt Williams
- Sal Bando
- Al Rosen
- Ned Williamson
I'm also going to rank Tommy Leach with the center fielders, which is probably where he "officially" belongs, although he spent basically equal time at both third and center.
Anyway, what I need your help on is letting me know if you think I've forgotten any third basemen. I'll post the other positions as I get around to them, but we'll start off at third base. So, anybody I've forgotten? Only include players that last played in 2004 or earlier, though, as the more recent players are not yet HoM-eligible.
Edgar Martinez last played in 2004, so I guess that he should be on the list. He didn't play a lot of games at 3rd, but the vast majority of his time in the field was there.
I'm keeping Edgar separate, and just mixing him in when I combine each position into an overall ranking (which is what will constitute my ballot for next year's HoM election).Quote:
Originally Posted by dps
Cross-posting these last few posts to a new thread.
http://www.thebaseballpage.com/posit...ankings/3B.phpQuote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Some names on there that may be worth looking into.
Those are really...odd...rankings. Wade Boggs 8th? Pie Traynor 11th? Al Rosen in the top 20? Al Rosen being so high makes me think it was extremely peak-based...but then Gary Gaetti is ahead of John McGraw...and Matt Williams is far ahead of Robin Ventura even though Ventura was better at both hitting and defense...No mention of Negro Leaguers Jud Wilson and John Beckwith, and then I checked their SS rankings and they have Pop Lloyd in the "Best of the Unranked" category...and Alex Rodriguez ahead of Honus Wagner...and Barry Larkin 3rd and Cal Ripken 10th? And at first base they have Cap Anson 22nd, behind Don Mattingly? WTF?Quote:
Originally Posted by scooterbracy
The rankings are a total joke...but, thank you for the link since at least its a ton of names to look through. :)