All-Time Positional Rankings

So, I'm "gearing up" to hopefully become a voter for the Hall of Merit at Baseball Think Factory. I've got a lot of work to do before, though, and I'm starting off with ranking their inductees at each position, which they've done previously. After I do that, I've got to get on ranking the rest of the guys that I think have any shot, as their elections consist of submitting a ranked 15 player ballot. So, I figured, as I'm doing the position rankings, I'll post them for you guys to see/discuss. I started with third base (the position with the least inductees) just to get my feet wet. I'm abstaining from ranking the Negro Leaguers right now, as I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough, and haven't started digging into all the information they (the HoM electorate) have made available.

Anyway, below are my temporary third base rankings. I say temporary because I'm still reading through tons of info from the HoM on these guys. My 1-4 are set in stone, but below that is subject to change once I wade through more info. I don't really have any peak, prime, or career preferences. I love a great long career (Paul Molitor), and I love a great peak without much career (Frank Baker), and I also love a decent sized career with a great prime (Ron Santo).

1. Mike Schmidt
2. Eddie Mathews
3. Wade Boggs
4. George Brett
5. Jud Wilson
6. Frank Baker
7. Ron Santo
8. Heinie Groh
9. Dick Allen
10. Brooks Robinson
11. Paul Molitor
12. Jimmy Collins
13. Ezra Sutton
14. Darrell Evans
15. John Beckwith
16. John McGraw
17. Stan Hack
18. Graig Nettles
19. Ken Boyer

Would you have voted for all 17?

Brooks Robinson needs to be moved up. The guy may have been the best defensive 3rd baseman ever adn could hit.

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Originally Posted by kellys11

Brooks Robinson needs to be moved up. The guy may have been the best defensive 3rd baseman ever adn could hit.

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The guy right above Brooks could be argued to have been the best defensive 3rd baseman, and that was when gloves were crap. And he could also hit too.

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

Would you have voted for all 17?

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Not sure on that yet, but I my first instinct is towards yes. (But, later on, I'll explain why that's different than a "yes" vote on the Hall of Fame)

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Originally Posted by kellys11

Brooks Robinson needs to be moved up. The guy may have been the best defensive 3rd baseman ever adn could hit.

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He had a couple very good years with the bat, but overall was just a slightly above average hitter. I originally had him lower but have moved him up a few times.

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Originally Posted by reflections

The guy right above Brooks could be argued to have been the best defensive 3rd baseman, and that was when gloves were crap. And he could also hit too.

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I think the best defensive third basemen is between Robinson and Jimmy Collins.

By the way, I updated them slightly, adding in the two Negro leaguers, who are more "temporary" than any of the other rankings as I'm still only partially through the HoM threads on these guys.

No Ventura? If you haven't already noticed from previous threads I am very big on the guy.

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Originally Posted by bucher34

No Ventura? If you haven't already noticed from previous threads I am very big on the guy.

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I'm ranking only the guys that the HoM has inducted. Ventura's first year on the ballot is next year.

A lot of times, Royals fans call George Brett the greatest 3B of all time...and I just laugh and laugh and laugh. It's amazing to me how far ahead of the pack Schmidt and Matthews are, IMO...they are in their own elite tier, I'd say.

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Originally Posted by KowboyKoop

A lot of times, Royals fans call George Brett the greatest 3B of all time...and I just laugh and laugh and laugh. It's amazing to me how far ahead of the pack Schmidt and Matthews are, IMO...they are in their own elite tier, I'd say.

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Without a doubt. I also think Brett and Boggs are basically interchangeable. I've flip-flopped them back and forth a few times now.

How can the Hall of Merit have Graig Nettles but not Ron Cey?

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Originally Posted by KowboyKoop

A lot of times, Royals fans call George Brett the greatest 3B of all time...and I just laugh and laugh and laugh. It's amazing to me how far ahead of the pack Schmidt and Matthews are, IMO...they are in their own elite tier, I'd say.

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Agreed. George Brett was a great player, but Schmidt and Matthews are ridiculous. Schmidt is easily among the greatest *players* of all time, let alone greatest 3B. He was even the best player in baseball for a few seasons out of his career.

Matthews was/is insanely underrated, both when he played, and still to this day.

Those guys are no-brainers for 1-2 in this list.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Not sure on that yet, but I my first instinct is towards yes. (But, later on, I'll explain why that's different than a "yes" vote on the Hall of Fame)


He had a couple very good years with the bat, but overall was just a slightly above average hitter. I originally had him lower but have moved him up a few times.


I think the best defensive third basemen is between Robinson and Jimmy Collins.

By the way, I updated them slightly, adding in the two Negro leaguers, who are more "temporary" than any of the other rankings as I'm still only partially through the HoM threads on these guys.

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That's what I love about baseball, there is so much history you always bound to forget a name or two.
Love the addition of the 2 Negro Leaguers, although I would have added Ray Dandridge over Beckwith.

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Originally Posted by justanewguy

How can the Hall of Merit have Graig Nettles but not Ron Cey?

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Career length. Besides that, skimming through the Ron Cey discussion, it seems a fair amount of the voters, while admitting Cey was a very good defender at third, believe Nettles was MUCH better.

In Nettles case, he got in in 2006, which didn't have any very strong first ballot candidates except Will Clark, who was overwhelmingly the top choice. Nettles was third, but just barely ahead of Reggie Smith and Bucky Walters. He's one of the weaker guys in the HoM (and when the HoM ranked their third basemen, they ranked him 17th with Boyer 18th. McGraw wasn't in yet.)

Nettles and McGraw are both under-rated, IMO, though in some ways they're opposites--Nettles' peak wasn't very high, but he was good for a long time, whereas McGraws had a short career, but a really high peak (fueled partly by what was an extremely high walk rate for the time).

I smell Anti-Ron Cey bias.:p

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Originally Posted by justanewguy

I smell Anti-Ron Cey bias.:p

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I just ranked Cey myself, and I have him coming up behind Nettles and Boyer. He matches Nettles on peak, but Nettles crushes him on career, and Boyer beats him on peak and is slightly ahead on career.

On my shortlist of third basemen I have to rank are Tommy Leach, Tony Perez, Al Rosen, Bob elliott, Sal Bando, Toby Harrah, and Pie Traynor. I've also changed my above rankings (again), and they're probably going to change some more by the end of the night.

I'm now moving on to first basemen, so the list in the first post is "final".

I have a feeling Steve Garvey is not in the HoM either. :)

Not close, heh. This past election, he wasn't mentioned on anybody's 15 player ballot.

Here are the first basemen I'll be ranking:

Cap Anson, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers, Will Clark, Roger Connor, Jimmie Foxx, Lou Gehrig, Hank Greenberg, Keith Hernandez, Harmon Killebrew, Buck Leonard, Willie McCovey, Mark McGwire, Johnny Mize, Eddie Murray, George Sisler, Joe Start, Mule Suttles, and Bill Terry


And if you're interested: the Hall of Merit Plaque Room.

They voted Ken Boyer for the Hall? WTF?

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

They voted Ken Boyer for the Hall? WTF?

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Boyer is basically the consensus worse third basemen in there. Meanwhile, the real life Hall's worst third basemen is probably Freddie Lindstrom. Compare those guys, why don't you?

Also, the real life Hall has severely underrepresented third basemen, with only 10 non-Negro League inductees.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I'm ranking only the guys that the HoM has inducted. Ventura's first year on the ballot is next year.

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Woops, sorry, I knew that just wasn't thinking. Kind of an aside, do you think Ventura will make the Hall? I think he should, but I don't know if he will.

He definitely won't.

Fair enough.

That's not meant as a knock against him. He has a way better case than most people would probably think, but there's simply no way the BBWAA is going to give him much consideration. If I had to bet, I'd put my money on him falling off the ballot immediately, getting somewhere between 2 to 4 percent of the vote.

Hey, do you think Moe Berg will get elected? :D

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

That's not meant as a knock against him. He has a way better case than most people would probably think, but there's simply no way the BBWAA is going to give him much consideration. If I had to bet, I'd put my money on him falling off the ballot immediately, getting somewhere between 2 to 4 percent of the vote.

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I would slightly agree, but he may surprise you. I'm still pushing for him. But if not, atleast I still have the Big Hurt.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Also, the real life Hall has severely underrepresented third basemen, with only 10 non-Negro League inductees.

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The question is why? Is it that there have been relatively few players with the specific talents to be put at third base - basically decent defense, but not good enough for shortstop? Or is it something else? My feeling is that defense at 3rd is significantly underrated - even with newer fielding metrics.

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

The question is why? Is it that there have been relatively few players with the specific talents to be put at third base - basically decent defense, but not good enough for shortstop? Or is it something else? My feeling is that defense at 3rd is significantly underrated - even with newer fielding metrics.

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Take Ventura for example :D

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Originally Posted by kenny1234

The question is why? Is it that there have been relatively few players with the specific talents to be put at third base - basically decent defense, but not good enough for shortstop? Or is it something else? My feeling is that defense at 3rd is significantly underrated - even with newer fielding metrics.

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Well, part of it was that the first half of the century had few offensive players. The offensive level was equal too or lesser then that even of 2B. However, 3B has definatel been overlooked

I haven't the foggiest idea why. Also, I should note that it's 11 if you include Molitor. Ron Santo is a huge HoF snub, for whatever reason. The guy played fantastic defense (and won the Gold Gloves for it) and had a great bat.

Furthermore, third base often times, for whatever reason, seems to attract the "low average, good OBP, good SLG" type of guy, like Darrell Evans, and that low batting average immediately turns off HoF voters.

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Well, part of it was that the first half of the century had few offensive players. The offensive level was equal too or lesser then that even of 2B. However, 3B has definatel been overlooked

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Third base in the first part of the century as significantly different than it is now, and I would say that the Hall of Fame has a poor job evaluating that era, although they did elect Jimmy Collins, but he had a shining, but short, managerial career as well. I don't think the voters ever really took that defensive difference into account.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I haven't the foggiest idea why. Also, I should note that it's 11 if you include Molitor. Ron Santo is a huge HoF snub, for whatever reason. The guy played fantastic defense (and won the Gold Gloves for it) and had a great bat.

Furthermore, third base often times, for whatever reason, seems to attract the "low average, good OBP, good SLG" type of guy, like Darrell Evans, and that low batting average immediately turns off HoF voters.

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It is because people now feel that players who hit in a certain way belong at a certain position, regardless of defense, which is stupid. But it is true...

First base rankings:

1. Lou Gehrig
2. Jimmie Foxx
3. Cap Anson
4. Johnny Mize
5. Dan Brouthers
6. Roger Connor
7. Hank Greenberg
8. Mark McGwire
9. Eddie Murray
10. Willie McCovey
11. Buck Leonard
12. Harmon Killebrew
13. Mule Suttles
14. Will Clark
15. Keith Hernandez
16. Joe Start
17. George Sisler
18. Bill Terry
19. Jake Beckley

Okay, worked everything in for first basemen and the above rankings are "final". I honestly don't have a good grasp on Joe Start, who's peak came in the 1860's, before there were major leagues and when statistics were very sparingly kept well. I ranked him nearly entirely on his career from 1870 onward.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Okay, worked everything in for first basemen and the above rankings are "final". I honestly don't have a good grasp on Joe Start, who's peak came in the 1860's, before there were major leagues and when statistics were very sparingly kept well. I ranked him nearly entirely on his career from 1870 onward.

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No Giambi?

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Originally Posted by Pavelb1

No Giambi?

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From up above:

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I'm ranking only the guys that the HoM has inducted.

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Also, Giambi? LOL. What made you say him instead of...oh...I don't know...Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, Albert Pujols...?

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

From up above:



Also, Giambi? LOL. What made you say him instead of...oh...I don't know...Jeff Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Fred McGriff, Carlos Delgado, Albert Pujols...?

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I dunno...I must be high....I was going to edit in 'nevermind' and you posted before I could.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Okay, worked everything in for first basemen and the above rankings are "final". I honestly don't have a good grasp on Joe Start, who's peak came in the 1860's, before there were major leagues and when statistics were very sparingly kept well. I ranked him nearly entirely on his career from 1870 onward.

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what resource do you use to find information on pre 1900 players?

1B looks pretty good. If it were me, I'd probably kick McGwire up several notches, and Killebrew up a few notches. And I'd have Hernandez above Clark.