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It may be beside the point if the 1B list is final, but I'd put Greenberg lower, and I'd think I'd put Beckley ahead of Terry and Sisler.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I don't have much of a handle on Start, either, but he was a good player well into his 40s, which was much rarer back in the day than it is now--that's got to be a point in his favor.
I'm giving Greenberg credit for missing most of 1942, all of 1942-1944, and half of 1945, due to the war. He picked up right where he left off, and had he played those seasons, his career would look a lot better.Quote:
Originally Posted by dps
As for Beckley, Terry, and Sisler, Beckley has no peak to speak of, and I like to see at least some peak. Sisler had a great peak, but little outside of it. Him and Terry could probably be flip-flopped.
The lists aren't 100% final. They'll never be 100%. I'm always open to hearing new arguments and revising my choices.
Also, as he was 28 in 1871, the first recorded year of his career, his peak likely came in the 1860's. During discussion, some people did run some "projections" of how he would've done in his 20's, based off similar post-age-28 players. Without that credit, I don't think he makes the cut-off.Quote:
I don't have much of a handle on Start, either, but he was a good player well into his 40s, which was much rarer back in the day than it is now--that's got to be a point in his favor.
Who would you put ahead of Greenberg?Quote:
Originally Posted by dps
Originally, I was thinking I'd drop him about 4 or 5 spots, but HGM may be right that I'm not giving him enough credit for missed years due to the war.Quote:
Originally Posted by wahoosamC
Slightly revised first base rankings:
- Lou Gehrig
- Jimmie Foxx
- Cap Anson
- Dan Brouthers
- Johnny Mize
- Roger Connor
- Hank Greenberg
- Mark McGwire
- Eddie Murray
- Willie McCovey
- Buck Leonard
- Harmon Killebrew
- Mule Suttles
- Keith Hernandez
- Will Clark
- Joe Start
- George Sisler
- Bill Terry
- Jake Beckley
And third base:
- Mike Schmidt
- Eddie Mathews
- Wade Boggs
- George Brett
- Jud Wilson
- Frank Baker
- Ron Santo
- Heinie Groh
- Brooks Robinson
- Dick Allen
- Paul Molitor
- Ezra Sutton
- Jimmy Collins
- Darrell Evans
- John Beckwith
- John McGraw
- Stan Hack
- Graig Nettles
- Ken Boyer
One question that im curious about, why is Will Clark rated higher than George Sisler who batted over .400 twice?
Sisler's an odd case because, at his peak, he was amazing. I have him as the best first basemen in the AL every year from 1916 to 1922. However, he missed 1923 with a severe case of sinusitis and was never the same player again. He still played full time from 1924 to the end of his career, but was a poor hitter for a first basemen. According to Dan Rosenheck's WARP, his career score is 45.9, a mere .2 wins above the total of his best 7 years, which was 45.7.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
Clark had a smaller peak. I have him as the best first basemen in the NL 3 times - 1988, 1989, and 1991. However, Clark has more value outside of his peak than Sisler had, which leads me to rank him over Sisler. It should be noted that from 14-17 (Keith Hernandez, Clark, Joe Start, and Sisler), there's very little separating them.
Second base:
- Eddie Collins
- Rogers Hornsby
- Joe Morgan
- Nap Lajoie
- Jackie Robinson
- Charlie Gehringer
- Bobby Grich
- Rod Carew
- Ryne Sandberg
- Ross Barnes
- Frankie Frisch
- Billy Herman
- Lou Whitaker
- Joe Gordon
- Bobby Doerr
- Bid McPhee
- Cupid Childs
- Hardy Richardson
- Frank Grant
- Willie Randolph
- Nellie Fox
I'd rank Hornsby and Barnes lower--Hornsby's defense sucked, and Barnes had a short career. I'd move McPhee up a bit I think, but I'm not sure how much.
Hornsby's bat was phenomenal though. I can't see ranking him any lower than 2nd. I don't think his defense "sucked." It certainly wasn't good, but it was tolerable with that bat.Quote:
Originally Posted by dps
Barnes had a short career but his peak was phenomenal.
No Roberto Alomar in the top 20 at 2B? :eek:
Edit: Never mind - memo to self: read the ground rules. They're usually found on the first page of the thread.
:)Quote:
Originally Posted by actionjackson
If I wind up voting in the coming year's HoM election, my top 2, I presume, in some order, will be Barry Larkin and Roberto Alomar. I haven't started looking closely yet at the non-inductees, though.
Shortstop was the hardest position to deal with so far. It had the greatest number of Negro Leaguers, with John Henry Lloyd, Home Run Johnson, Dick Lundy, Dobie Moore, and Willie Wells. It had a guy in the HoM more for his undocumented 1850's/1860's work than his 1870's, as he was an old player in his decline phase by the time major leagues like the National Association were established, in Dickey Pearce, and it has a shortstop/pitcher hybrid in John Ward, plus oddities like the extreme peak of Hughie Jennings, and the Sisleresque career of Ernie Banks.
- Honus Wagner
- John Henry Lloyd
- Cal Ripken, Jr.
- Arky Vaughan
- George Davis
- Bill Dahlen
- Robin Yount
- Luke Appling
- Joe Cronin
- George Wright
- Alan Trammell
- Ozzie Smith
- Ernie Banks
- Willie Wells
- Home Run Johnson
- Pee Wee Reese
- Lou Boudreau
- Bobby Wallace
- Jack Glasscock
- Joe Sewell
- Hughie Jennings
- John Ward
- Dickey Pearce
- Dick Lundy
- Dobie Moore
I'd rank Smith and Glasscock higher.
Catcher:
- Josh Gibson
- Johnny Bench
- Yogi Berra
- Gary Carter
- Gabby Hartnett
- Bill Dickey
- Carlton Fisk
- Mickey Cochrane
- Deacon White
- Buck Ewing
- Roy Campanella
- Louis Santop
- Ted Simmons
- Cal McVey
- Bill Freehan
- Joe Torre
- Charlie Bennett
- Roger Bresnahan
- Quincy Trouppe
- Biz Mackey