That nonsense is so overplayed that it's not even the least bit funny anymore.
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That nonsense is so overplayed that it's not even the least bit funny anymore.
You can make a roster (non pitcher), with up to 15 guys (DH and bench). I see your starters, but who would you back some of them up with? So far only two of us have done that, myself included. It'd be nice to see who you think would be the starters versus the reserves.
Catcher - Mike Piazza
It's, obviously, between Mike Piazza and Ivan Rodriguez. I give the nod to Piazza. Rodriguez was easily the better all-around defender, but Piazza's edge on offense was astronomical. Piazza's main fault defensively was his arm, which was terrible. Pudge's arm, on the other hand, was his main strength. Piazza's received good marks on blocking the plate/pitches in the dirt, and handling pitchers, from numerous sources I've read. An article in this year's Hardball Times Annual breaks down how Piazza had a positive effect on the pitchers he catched for. All told, I don't think Piazza defensively is nearly as bad as he's usually made out to be, and his ridiculous offensive edge over Rodriguez makes him my pick.
First Base - Jeff Bagwell
I looked at Bagwell, Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, and Fred McGriff. Thomas was easily the best hitter of the pack, and him and Bagwell were far ahead of both Palmeiro and McGriff. I went with Bagwell though for two reasons. 1) Thomas spent roughly 33% of the time as the designated hitter. 2) When in the field, Bagwell was vastly superior defensively. The offensive edge Thomas has isn't enough to make up for those two faults.
Second Base - Craig Biggio
You can't go wrong here with either Biggio or Roberto Alomar. They're really neck and neck. I gave the edge to Biggio because he played more, pure and simple.
Shortstop - Barry Larkin
I see no other contender.
Third Base - Robin Ventura
I looked at Ventura, Matt Williams, Ken Caminiti, and Wade Boggs. The 90's were a period without any real standout third basemen. Chipper Jones got started halfway through the decade. Ventura, I feel, is pretty underrated. Baseball Prospectus's WARP has him at 86.5, 10 wins ahead of Matt Williams at 75.1. Dan Rosenheck's WARP, though, which uses a higher replacement level and incorporates play-by-play defensive metrics (which WARP is in the process of incorporating), sees the edge just very slight, with Ventura at 44.9 and Williams at 44.7. I give the slight edge to Ventura.
Left Field - Barry Bonds
Center Field - Ken Griffey, Jr.
No competition at either spot.
Right Field - Larry Walker
I looked at Walker, Paul O'Neill, Sammy Sosa, and Tony Gwynn. Paul O'Neill, like Ventura, is another guy that I think is often undervalued. Walker, though, I think is the clear "winner" amongst this group, but I have O'Neill second.
Real quick, off the top of my head, with runners-up in parentheses, and using 5 SPs, 3 RPs and 1 swingman:
C: Mike Piazza (Ivan Rodriguez)
1B: Frank Thomas (Mark McGwire)
2B: Robby Alomar (Craig Biggio)
SS: Cal Ripken (Barry Larkin)
3B: Matt Williams (Robin Ventura)
OF: Barry Bonds, Ken Griffey Jr., Sammy Sosa (Larry Walker, Tony Gwynn, Rickey Henderson)
SP: Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, Randy Johnson, Tom Glavine, Mike Mussina
RP: John Franco, John Wetteland, Rob Nen
SP/RP: Pedro Martinez
I'm wondering, how come you gave Mussina the #5 over Pedro? Was it becuase of playing time?Quote:
Originally Posted by justanewguy
Pretty much. Same reason I had a hard time picking between Ripken and Larkin. Ripken had just enough playing time to count it. That and the name. Henderson is on my list for the same reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by 200tang
Also, I'm a Dodger fan, and I fondly remember his time in middle relief.
fair enough :)Quote:
Originally Posted by justanewguy
C - Pudge - Rarest of rare. A 5-tool catcher. Compare Piazza to him on offense, pts Piazza. Compare defense, baserunning, arm, and calling the game, it is all Rodriguez thru the 90s. Also, compare playoffs. Hands down the Pudge.
1b- Jeff Bagwell - I like Thomas, but Bagwell beats him on defense.
2b - Roberto Alomar - During the 90s, no one better.
Larkin - Ripken is a baseball God though and dont forget Omar Vizquel.
3b - Matt Williams - Power in a power position.
LF- Bonds
CF - Griffey
Paul O'Neill - This is where I go south on opinion. Walker and Gwynn were both great. O'Neill was the unofficial captain/ spark plug that led to 4 WS wins.
Pitcher - Too many to name. I would say Clemens and Maddux though with Cone a close 3rd.
I guess if we are doing pitchers as well.....
SP:Quote:
Originally Posted by bucher34
1: Roger Clemens
2: Greg Maddux
3: Randy Johnson
4: John Smoltz
5: Tom Glavine
6: David Cone
Bullpen:
Dennis Eckersley (majority of 3 decades, wow)
John Franco
John Wetteland
Rod Beck
Trevor Hoffman
C: Mike Piazza
He was a great hitter, and during the '90s was better then Pudge, even with the fielding factored
1B: Jeff Bagwell
Like Houston said, he played more 1st then Thomas, narrowly beating him
2B: Roberto Alomar
He and Biggio are both at the top, and Alomar wins out due to his added speed.
3B: Matt Williams beats out Ventura
SS: Barry Larkin without a doubt
LF: Bonds, easily
CF: Ken Griffey
RF: Larry Walker, an underrated and very dominant player
DH: Edgar Martinez
SP: Maddux
SP: Clemens
SP: Johnson
SP: Smoltz
SP: Glavine
RP: Eckersley
RP: Rod Beck
RP: Todd Worrell
RP: John Franco
RSR - I can understand Bagwell ahead of Thomas at 1B - but is there a good reason for Edgar ahead of Thomas at DH?
Only if you focus purely on what they did as a DH and not incorporate Thomas's time at first base, which I think is okay to do at non-DH positions (ie. focus only on time at the given position), but DH is a different beast.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny1234
C Mike Piazza--for total career, I think I might put Rodriguez ahead, but looking only at the 90s, I'll go with Piazza.
1B Jeff Bagwell--a much better all-around player than Thomas, though Thomas was probably a better pure hitter.
2B Roberto Alomar--similar to the situation at catcher, Biggio was better if you look at their entire careers, but Alomar was the 2nd baseman of the decade.
3B Robin Ventura--tough call, because a lot of the best 3rd basemen of the 90s were only good for half the decade.
SS Barry Larkin--Ripken was better overall, but didn't have any really good years after 91.
LF Barry Bonds--I still detest him, but I'll give him his due.
CF Ken Griffey, Jr--no contest
RF Larry Walker--As I pointed out in the old "best player to wear the uniform" thread (I think that was the title), he'd be an easier pick if he'd stayed healthier.
DH Edgar Martinez--gets the nod over Molitor because Molitor ran out of steam before the end of the decade, and over Thomas because Thomas really didn't DH that much until 2000.
Bench Ivan Rodriguez, Craig Biggio, Ricky Henderson, Omar Vizquel, Albert Belle
Batting .305 doesnt constitute as running out of steam in his 2nd to last season. I dont disagree with Martinez being there, but I wanted to point out that Molitor was great until his final year, which at 42 what he did isnt all that bad. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by dps
His raw numbers may not look like he ran out of steam, but that's because as he ran out of steam, the offensive level of the league skyrocketed. From 1987-1994, his OPS+ ranged from 125 to 161. From 1995-1998, he was at 101, 116, 104, 86. For a DH, that's not good.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage