Are there more current/unelected HOF'ers

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Also, metsguy, one other question. How in the world do you vote for Omar Vizquel, but not think Ozzie Smith belongs?

---

Because I don't believe a player should get in for just his defense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by metsguy234

And Trammell was a great fielder, and above average everywhere else. Jeter, again, is not good at anything really.

---

Uh, he's very good at hitting?

You may not think so because, as I said, he's not ridiculously great at any one aspect of hitting but rather above average at every aspect of hitting, but put that all together, and he's a very good hitter (particularly once you account for his position).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by metsguy234

Because I don't believe a player should get in for just his defense.

---

But you think Omar Vizquel should get in....what else does Omar Vizquel have besides his defense? :confused: Omar Vizquel was worse at defense than Ozzie Smith AND worse at hitting AND worse at baserunning. Ozzie Smith was Omar Vizquel except better at everything by a substantial amount.

You're confusing me more and more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

But you think Omar Vizquel should get in....what else does Omar Vizquel have besides his defense? :confused: Omar Vizquel was worse at defense than Ozzie Smith AND worse at hitting AND worse at baserunning. Ozzie Smith was Omar Vizquel except better at everything by a substantial amount.

You're confusing me more and more.

---

Whoops... you're right, I thought Vizquel had much more HR and a much less unsightly career batting average. I'll take him off my ballot then.

This is, once again, why I suggest you look things up before saying things.

Wanna look up Ivan Rodriguez (and Derek Jeter) and change your mind on them too?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Which is......REALLY 'EFFIN GOOD!

And you've also previously claimed that you'd vote for a nearly identical player , Alan Trammell.


Like Omar Vizquel, right? You know, the guy that was good at one thing and sucked at everything else?



You're severely undervaluing the value in being very good everywhere and not having a weakness. It's why Carlos Beltran is such a great player, and also why he is so underrated, because, like you, people underrate players that aren't amazing anywhere, but have no weaknesses. As I said, I just thought that was a matter of circumstance and never saw anybody actually spell it out like you have.

---

Agree about Beltran, probably the best CFer in baseball currently.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wahoosamC

Agree about Beltran, probably the best CFer in baseball currently.

---

Don't get carried away there, buddy...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by metsguy234

Don't get carried away there, buddy...

---

Only real one with an argument is Sizemore.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by metsguy234

Don't get carried away there, buddy...

---

I agree with wahoosam--Beltran is fantastic. I can't think of a better current center fielder right now.

Sizemore/Beltran are really 1a and 1b in some order. Personally, I honestly can't distinguish them, but they're clearly the top 2. It's not getting carried away in the least bit to say Beltran is the best CFer in baseball today.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Sizemore/Beltran are really 1a and 1b in some order. Personally, I honestly can't distinguish them, but they're clearly the top 2. It's not getting carried away in the least bit to say Beltran is the best CFer in baseball today.

---

I agree. Although I do think one or both of the Upton brothers are getting prepared to put themselves in the conversation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG

I agree. Although I do think one or both of the Upton brothers are getting prepared to put themselves in the conversation.

---

Justin plays RF doesn't he?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wahoosamC

Justin plays RF doesn't he?

---

Yeah, he does.

Houston this is the greatest burn i've read in a long time

"Ozzie Smith was Omar Vizquel except better at everything by a substantial amount."

On the Derek Jeter question, if he continued playing a little longer I Would vote him in, but at the moment I'll have to say no :-\

I think Jeter is a great player, but his offense (even at SS) just doesn't put him over his defense enough for me to consider him one of the greatest and be hall worthy. Definitely on the bubble, but I wouldn't put him in yet.

Jeter's not close to being done. I'll also say he's a mortal lock to go in on the first ballot regardless of whether or not you think he belongs, and regardless of when he retires from this point on. He's got 9 All Star Games, the RoTY, 3 Gold Gloves, 3 Silver Sluggers, 4 World Series rings, the whole "mystique", tons of postseason play, the special moments, etc. He's the writer's perfect candidate.

I'd also like to point out that according to Baseball-Reference, his top 4 comps, in order, are Barry Larkin, Alan Trammell, Ryne Sandberg, and Roberto Alomar. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Jeter's not close to being done. I'll also say he's a mortal lock to go in on the first ballot regardless of whether or not you think he belongs, and regardless of when he retires from this point on. He's got 9 All Star Games, the RoTY, 3 Gold Gloves, 3 Silver Sluggers, 4 World Series rings, the whole "mystique", tons of postseason play, the special moments, etc. He's the writer's perfect candidate.

I'd also like to point out that according to Baseball-Reference, his top 4 comps, in order, are Barry Larkin, Alan Trammell, Ryne Sandberg, and Roberto Alomar. :)

---

He's also only 465 hits away from 3,000. He could average 155 hits over the next three seasons to get there, and he's never had fewer than 156 hits in a single season (that was 2003, when he was injured). He's a shoo-in when he's all said and done.

Simply because he plays in New York, combined with all the postseason accolades, I could see him getting in even without 3,000 hits, but I'm sure he'll surpass that.

don't forget he dated Mariah Carey. Maybe she can throw out the first pitch for the Hall Of Fame game.
All kidding aside.
Jeter is definitely a lock. I'm curious though as to what pct of votes he'll get.

Yeah Jeter is pretty much guaranteed a first ballot lock, 3 undeserved GG's, an undeserved clutch reputation, an undeserved reputation as a great leader, and who could forget the best argument of all, he won 4 rings.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wahoosamC

Yeah Jeter is pretty much guaranteed a first ballot lock, 3 undeserved GG's, an undeserved clutch reputation, an undeserved reputation as a great leader, and who could forget the best argument of all, he won 4 rings.

---

I'd agree with everything you said, except that. I don't see how his reputation as a great leader is undeserved, nor do I think that's up for anybody besides the players to decide.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Mark Prior, Andruw Jones, and Hank Blalock dropping from his list in just 3 years shows how little value there is in predicting HoF cases that early in a player's career.

And, I'm assuming that the list is in some sort of order of likelihood? How is Evan Longoria above Beltran, Halladay, Sizmeore, Berkman, Sabathia, and Webb? And yes, Jose Reyes deserves to be on that list if you're going to predict players out this far. And Roy Oswalt should not have dropped off

---

If we're going out this far, then Pedroia is my super-early pick, who I really feel a lot better about then say Mauer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Uh, he's very good at hitting?

You may not think so because, as I said, he's not ridiculously great at any one aspect of hitting but rather above average at every aspect of hitting, but put that all together, and he's a very good hitter (particularly once you account for his position).

---

That brings up something that occured to me....without looking it up, Jeter is probably one of the best hitting SS's in the game. But he's really not good at SS. Should we reward him for playing out of position with a HOF spot?

I'd still give it to him for the rings, the famous clutch hits and the leadership in addition to the offense...It just doesn't seem fair to compare him to other SS's.

He's a shortstop. Whether or not he was "out of position" is irrelevant to the on-field value he provided his team. The Yankees, with Jeter at shortstop, were getting a lot more offense out of that position than most other teams. Yes, he hurt them defensively, and we should account for that, but it's not enough to put him on the outside looking in of the Hall of Fame.