A little project I'm thinking of doing (HGM's Historical MVP/Cy Young Choices)

1929:

AL MVP: Babe Ruth
NL MVP: Rogers Hornsby
AL Cy: Lefty Grove
NL Cy: Charley Root

I don't know what else I can say about Babe Ruth. As for the NL, Rogers Hornsby posted a 178 OPS+, leading the league. His defense wasn't very good, but his bat more than made up for it. Lefty Grove with a 151 ERA in 275.1 innings takes home his 5th consecutive and 7th overall HGM Cy Young. Charley Root in the NL threw 272 innings and had a 133 ERA+. Burleigh Grimes threw 40 less innings with an ERA+ 20 points higher, but was greatly assisted by his defense, and thus comes in 2nd to Root.

1928:

AL MVP: Babe Ruth
NL MVP: Rogers Hornsby
AL Cy: Lefty Grove
NL Cy: Dazzy Vance

I have a feeling that the 1920's, as a whole, are going to be incredibly easy calls. Ruth hit .323/.463/.709 for a 208 OPS+. Hornsby matched him hitting .387/.498/.632 for a 200 OPS+, as a second basemen. Grove gets Cy Young #8, putting up a 155 ERA+ in 261.2 innings. Dazzy Vance outdid him, with a silly 191 ERA+ in 280 innings.

1927:

AL MVP: Babe Ruth
NL MVP: Rogers Hornsby
AL Cy: Tommy Thomas
NL Cy: Dazzy Vance

*Yawn* to the MVP's, again. Tommy Thomas and Dazzy Vance both won their Cy's in very close battles, narrowly edging out Ted Lyons and Pete Alexander, respectively. Both came down to the difference in their fielding-independent pitching stats and unearned runs, which just goes to show how close I had each pair.

1926:

AL MVP: Babe Ruth
NL MVP: Paul Waner
AL Cy: Lefty Grove
NL Cy: Charley Root

Ruth wins again. Paul Waner breaks Rogers Hornsby's 3-award streak. Waner's 147 OPS+ trailed league leader Hack Wilson by just 4 points, while he played excellent defense in the outfield. The AL Cy goes to Lefty Grove, again, for putting up a 166 OPS+ in 258 innings. George Uhle had a really strong season, putting up a 143 OPS+ in 318 innings, but Grove combined relieving with starting, making a portion of his innings at a much higher leverage. Combine that with the quality advantage, and I'm giving it to Grove. Charley Root wins his 2nd HGM Cy Young, narrowly edging out a close pack of pitchers including Ray Kremer, Jesse Petty, and Hal Carlson.

1925:

AL MVP: Al Simmons
NL MVP: Rogers Hornsby
AL Cy: Herb Pennock
NL Cy: Dolf Luque

Babe Ruth had an off-year this year, and while there were a handful of players that had better rate stat seasons than Al Simmons (Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Harry Rice), Simmons trumped them in playing time by a large margin. Harry Heilmann was up there with him, but the defensive difference puts Simmons on top. Rogers Hornsby grabs his 4th HGM MVP. On the pitching side of things, both my Cy Young winners had sub-.500 records. Pennock put up a 144 ERA+ in 257 innings, while doing double-duty with 31 starts and 16 relief appearances. Dolf Luque made 36 starts, pitching 291 innings at a 156 ERA+ level.

1924:

AL MVP: Babe Ruth
NL MVP: Rogers Hornsby
AL Cy: Walter Johnson
NL Cy: Dazzy Vance

Back to the Babe and Rogers. Vance had another awesome season for the Robins, putting up a 174 ERA+ in 308 innings. 36 year old Walter Johnson pitched 277.2 innings with a 149 ERA+, edging out Herb Pennock for the award.

1923:

AL MVP: Babe Ruth
NL MVP: Dolf Luque
AL Cy: Elam Vangilder
NL Cy: Dolf Luque

Ruth, again. Dolf Luque had a sick season. In 322 innings, he had a 201 ERA+. With a weak crop of position players, that easily allows him to take home by the MVP and the Cy Young. Elam Vangilder, what a name, had a 137 ERA+ in 282 innings, good enough for the AL Cy.

1922:

AL MVP: George Sisler
NL MVP: Rogers Hornsby
AL Cy: Red Faber
NL Cy: Wilbur Cooper

This is the year Sisler hit .420, and his other stats were good enough to warrant his MVP. Hornsby takes home his 6th HGM MVP. Red Faber tossed 352 innings with a league-leading ERA+. Wilbur Cooper had a 128 ERA+ in 294 innings in the NL.

1921:

AL MVP: Babe Ruth
NL MVP: Rogers Hornsby
AL Cy: Red Faber
NL Cy: Burleigh Grimes

More easy calls. Ruth and Hornsby were once again 1-2 in OPS+ in the majors, without anybody close. Red Faber had another awesome season - a 171 ERA+ in 330 innings. Burleigh Grimes had a 138 ERA+ in just over 300 innings.

1920:

AL MVP: Babe Ruth
NL MVP: Rogers Hornsby
AL Cy: Stan Covelski
NL Cy: Pete Alexander

This may well have been the easiest year so far.

1919:

AL MVP: Babe Ruth
NL MVP: Rogers Hornsby
AL Cy: Walter Johnson
NL Cy: Hippo Vaughn

More easy calls. Ruth wins his record 10th HGM MVP, while Hornsby is right on his tail with 9.

1918:

AL MVP: Walter Johnson
NL MVP: Heinie Groh
AL Cy: Walter Johnson
NL Cy: Hippo Vaughn

The Big Train had a 214 ERA+ in 326 innings. No AL position player was close enough to challenge him, although Babe Ruth's unique combination of excellent hitting and decent pitching makes him a strong second. Heinie Groh narrowly edges out Edd Roush for the NL MVP. Groh played a slick third base while putting up a 143 OPS+.

1917:

AL MVP: Ty Cobb
NL MVP: Heinie Groh
AL Cy: Eddie Cicotte
NL Cy: Pete Alexander

Ty Cobb in the AL was an easy call. For the NL, it was very close between Heinie Groh and Rogers Hornsby. Groh had roughly 100 more plate appearances. Offensively, Hornsby was better, but Groh's advantage in playing time really narrowed the gap. Defensively, we're entering the years where third base defense was almost, or arguably more, important than second base, as the power game was all but nonexistent, and bunts were very popular. Groh, as mentioned in my previous post, played excellent defense at third, while Hornsby was at best an average second basemen. The gap in playing time and the relative importance and quality of their defense gives Groh the edge. The Cy Young's were both easy calls. Eddie Cicotte had a 174 ERA+ in 346 innings, while Pete Alexander put up a 153 ERA+ in 388 innings.

1916:

AL MVP: Tris Speaker
NL MVP: Pete Alexander
AL Cy: Babe Ruth
NL Cy: Pete Alexander

Tris Speaker was close but clearly ahead of Ty Cobb. In the NL, Pete Alexander racked up 389 innings at a level of a 170 ERA+, good for both the MVP and the Cy Young. Babe Ruth becomes the first player in history to win an MVP as a position player and a Cy Young, putting up a 158 ERA+ in 323 innings.

1915:

AL MVP: Ty Cobb
NL MVP: Pete Alexander
AL Cy: Walter Johnson
NL Cy: Pete Alexander

More easy calls, although Eddie Collins was right on the tail of Ty Cobb.

1914:

AL MVP: Tris Speaker
NL MVP: Sherry Magee
AL Cy: Walter Johnson
NL Cy: Bill James

Tris Speaker was an easy call in the AL. In the NL, there was a few very deserving candidates - Gavvy Cravath, George Burns, Miller Huggins, Zack Wheat. I went with Sherry Magee, who put up a 157 OPS+ while playing solid defense. 1914 was the year of Dutch Leonard's ridiculous 279 ERA+ and sub-1 ERA. However, I can't overlook the fact that Walter Johnson threw nearly 150 more innings (with a 164 ERA+). Bill James, not to be confused with the noted statistical analyst and author of 70 years later ;), had a 150 ERA+ in 332 innings.

When we both finish our awards, I'd be very interested to see how often my choices matched up w/ yours.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

When we both finish our awards, I'd be very interested to see how often my choices matched up w/ yours.

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Considering you give playing time basically zero weight, they probably match up worse than mine do with the BBWAA. And at any rate, that's on you. Do you have your choices in an Excel spreadsheet?

1913:

AL MVP: Walter Johnson
NL MVP: Gavvy Cravath
AL Cy: Walter Johnson
NL Cy: Christy Mathewson

Johnson just had a ridiculous season. His 1.14 ERA comes out to a 259 ERA+, and he did that in a league-leading 346 innings. Joe Jackson, Tris Speaker, Eddie Collins, and Frank Baker all had very good seasons, but you just can't come close to that type of pitching performance. In the NL, Cravath smashed 19 home runs and had a 172 OPS+. Christy Mathewson threw 306 innings and had a 152 ERA+.

1912:

AL MVP: Walter Johnson
NL MVP: Honus Wagner
AL Cy: Walter Johnson
NL Cy: Christy Mathewson

Johnson, again, was, for lack of a better word, ridiculous. 242 ERA+ in 369 innings. Honus Wagner (144 OPS+) edges out Heinie Zimmerman (169 OPS+) due to much greater defensive value. Christy Mathewson was second in the NL with a 160 ERA+ to Jeff Tesreau's 173, but beat him out by nearly 70 innings.

1911:

AL MVP: Ty Cobb
NL MVP: Frank Schulte
AL Cy: Walter Johnson
NL Cy: Christy Mathewson

Johnson was relatively mortal this year, with a 172 ERA+ in 322 innings. This allowed Ty Cobb with his 196 OPS+ and excellent baserunning and defensive value to take the HGM MVP. Frank Schulte tied Honus Wagner for the league lead in OPS+ with 156, and despite the defensive advantage Wagner has, Schulte wins it on playing time. Mathewson again topped the NL, this time with a 168 ERA+ in 307 innings.

172+ERA and 322 innings is relatively mortal? lol. And also, how far back do you plan to go? To 1901 or to 1878 or what?

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

172+ERA and 322 innings is relatively mortal? lol.

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When you compare that to his 240+ ERA+'s in 350 innings in 1912 and 1913, yes, it's relatively mortal :p

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And also, how far back do you plan to go? To 1901 or to 1878 or what?

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Right now, 1901. When I get there, I'm going to take a look earlier and see if I want to go back further.

1910:

AL MVP: Nap Lajoie
NL MVP: Sherry Magee
AL Cy: Walter Johnson
NL Cy: Christy Mathewson

Nap Lajoie edges out Eddie Collins and Ty Cobb. As a second basemen, he posted a 199 OPS+, slightly lower than Cobb's 206 but in about 100 more plate appearances. Sherry Magee topped the NL in OPS+ by 20 points. In the AL, there was 3 extremely great pitchers bunched together. Ed Walsh had a 189 ERA+ in 369.2 innings. Walter Johnson had a 183 ERA+ in 370 innings. Jack Coombs had a 182 ERA+ in 353 innings. It came down to Johnson and Walsh. I gave the slight edge to Johnson for a couple reasons - more starts, more complete games, more strikeouts, more batters faced, and slightly less unearned runs. It's certainly incredibly close that it could go either way. In the NL, it was Mathewson again with a 156 ERA+ in 318.1 innings. This year marks Walter Johnson's 6th consecutive HGM Cy Young, and Mathewson's 4th consecutive.

1909:

AL MVP: Eddie Collins
NL MVP: Honus Wagner
AL Cy: Frank Smith
NL Cy: Mordecai Brown

Ty Cobb had another fabulous season with a 194 OPS+. Eddie Collins was second in the league with a 171 while playing a stellar second base. Both had excellent, MVP-quality seasons, but I'm giving the slight edge to Collins due to defense and positional value. Honus Wagner was the clear call in the NL. The AL crop of pitchers consisted of a lot of solid guys, but Frank Smith outdid them all by a large gap in innings, and had a solid 130 ERA+, earning the award. Mordecai Brown had a 193 ERA+ compared to Christy Mathewson's 222, but had an innings advantage of over 60 while also appearing in 50 games to Christy's 37. Smith and Brown break Johnson and Mathewson's streak.

1908:

AL MVP: Ed Walsh
NL MVP: Honus Wagner
AL Cy: Ed Walsh
NL Cy: Christy Mathewson

Walsh trailed Addie Joss in ERA+ by a large margin - 163 to 205. However, Walsh made 14 more starts and 10 more relief appearances, adding up to a massive difference in innings of 140. Walsh led the American League in innings, and Joss himself placed second. A 140 inning gap over the next pitcher is a ridiculous amount of value, and without a real standout position player, that much value earns him the MVP as well as the Cy Young. Christy Mathewson was the only pitcher in the majors particularly close to Walsh in innings with 390 while putting up a 168 ERA.

Why don't you just give up HGM? We all know Metsguy's knowledge of sabermetrics and baseball history far exceeds yours. :D

1907:

AL MVP: Ty Cobb
NL MVP: Honus Wagner
AL Cy: Ed Walsh
NL Cy: Christy Mathewson

Ty Cobb had a fine season in his first full year in the bigs, earning the MVP award over Nap Lajoie and George Stone. Honus Wagner was the most dominant position player in the NL in this time period, and he gets his third consecutive HGM MVP. Ed Walsh, again, paced the AL in innings by a large margin, but not quite as large as in 1908, limiting him to just the Cy Young award this year. Christy Mathewson wins the NL award over Bob Ewing, despite trailing him by 15 innings and 26 points in ERA+, and here's why. Ewing had a 1.73 ERA to Mathewson's 2.00. Now, let's take a look at Run Average - the number of runs given up per 9 innings, not just earned runs. Ewing - 2.82, Mathewson - 2.51. Ewing gave up 40 unearned runs to Mathewson's 18. Unearned runs in this time period were much more common than they are now, and Mathewson himself had a few years where he gave up roughly 40 of them, but in this particular season, that gives Mathewson the edge.

1906:

AL MVP: Nap Lajoie
NL MVP: Honus Wagner
AL Cy: Al Orth
NL Cy: Mordecai Brown

George Stone had a 192 OPS+ compared to Lajoie's 169, but as with Lajoie's 1910 MVP over Ty Cobb, it comes down to Lajoie playing second base extremely well. The AL Cy was a hard choice, with no standout candidate. I decided to go with the leader in Pitching Runs Above Replacement, Al Orth, who posted a 127 ERA+ in 338.2 innings. Mordecai Brown dominated the league with a 1.04 ERA, 253 ERA+, in 277.1 innings, easily taking home the NL Cy.

1905:

AL MVP: George Stone
NL MVP: Honus Wagner
AL Cy: Rube Waddell
NL Cy: Christy Mathewson

Stone placed 4th in the AL with a 146 OPS+ behind Elmer Flick (166), Frank Isbell (149) and Sam Crawford (148). Isbell only played in 94 games, and Flick in 132, while Stone had more defensive value than each of them. Wagner, again, in the NL, giving him 5 consecutive and 6 overall HGM MVP's. Waddell and Mathewson were both very easy calls for the Cy Young.

1904:

AL MVP: Nap Lajoie
NL MVP: Honus Wagner
AL Cy: Jack Chesbro
NL Cy: Joe McGinnity

All incredibly easy calls.

1903:

AL MVP: Nap Lajoie
NL MVP: Honus Wagner
AL Cy: Cy Young
NL Cy: Joe McGinnity

Easy calls for the MVP. Cy Young wins his namesake award. Joe McGinnity edges out Christy Mathewson on quantity.

1884... if u do anyone but Hoss Radbourn for MVP and CY Young I will personaly drive to your house and beat u sensless :p

1902:

AL MVP: Cy Young
NL MVP: Honus Wagner
AL Cy: Cy Young
NL Cy: Jack Taylor

Cy Young takes home both the MVP and the Cy with a 166 ERA+ in 384.2 innings. Wagner gets his 8th consecutive MVP award. Jack Taylor had a 202 ERA+ in 324.2 innings.

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Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet

1884... if u do anyone but Hoss Radbourn for MVP and CY Young I will personaly drive to your house and beat u sensless :p

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What he did that year is just unbelievable....

1901:

AL MVP: Cy Young
NL MVP: Jesse Burkett
AL Cy: Cy Young
NL Cy: Vic Willis

Cy Young again takes home both awards, posting a 216 ERA+ in 371.1 innings. Jesse Burkett edges out Honus Wagner in Wagner's attempt for a 9th straight MVP. Vic Willis had a 153 ERA+ in 305 innings.

I'll decide in a little while whether or not to continue going back, or to stop there. :)

So now we see how similar my picks were to yours... this'll take a while

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

So now we see how similar my picks were to yours... this'll take a while

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It would take a couple of seconds if you had your picks in an Excel file ;)

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Originally Posted by ragecage

This might sound corny but if I had one wish, it would be to see the games these players played back in the 50's and prior. I think it would be something amazing to see. Ok I am drunk, but get over it, compared to a lot of people I am of drinking age.

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I don't know I would wish that if I had only one wish. But I do often wish I could have seen some of these awesome players.

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Originally Posted by rogue9

I don't know I would wish that if I had only one wish. But I do often wish I could have seen some of these awesome players.

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I'd just wish for infinite wishes, then I could do all of that :D