A little project I'm thinking of doing (HGM's Historical MVP/Cy Young Choices)

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

No disagreements here, but the AL was a REAL toughie for me. Pedro Martinez had a ridiculous season (again), and I really wanted to give him both the MVP and the Cy Young, but I saw his overall value close enough to Alex Rodriguez, Jason Giambi, and Carlos Delgado that I could barely fit a hair through the difference, so I deferred to a position player.

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I've been thinking about this one some more, and I think I may yet change my mind...again. I'm going to look deeper into it later on when I'm home, but what's really unsettling to me is that Pedro in 1999 was jobbed of the MVP award in real life (received more first place votes than any other player, but was left COMPLETELY off a couple ballots), and at first glance, I'd give it to him in 1999, and he was even BETTER in 2000. While it's certainly possible that the 1999 AL doesn't have any position players on par with A-Rod/Delgado/Giambi, I don't think that's that case. So, I just find it a bit unsettling to award the 1999 MVP to Pedro while not giving it to him in 2000 as well. A 1.74 ERA in a year where the park-adjusted league ERA is around 5.00 is just mindboggling. I very well may change my 2000 choice (again) from Giambi to Pedro.

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Please don't take this the wrong way, but why are you letting someone else separate the useful hobbies and pursuits from the useless ones for you? Why not follow these interests and share them with your kids?

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I suppose I didn't articulate it very well. I"m not allowing anyone to dictate how I spend my time, pursuits of hobbies. I spend way too much time on this site as well as others lol. I look back at all the time I spent years ago, and just see alot of it as wasted that will never be given back. In moderation, its fine....i just went overboard and wish I had used some of that time more productively. Of course it's different for everyone.....I'm just explaining how I see things personally in my life. And it wasn't someone who dictated that to me...but it was someone who pointed it out which caused the realization that I'd rather have my head filled with more of what I consider 'useful' and current information than the stats and sports trivia I used to endulge in.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I've been thinking about this one some more, and I think I may yet change my mind...again. I'm going to look deeper into it later on when I'm home, but what's really unsettling to me is that Pedro in 1999 was jobbed of the MVP award in real life (received more first place votes than any other player, but was left COMPLETELY off a couple ballots), and at first glance, I'd give it to him in 1999, and he was even BETTER in 2000. While it's certainly possible that the 1999 AL doesn't have any position players on par with A-Rod/Delgado/Giambi, I don't think that's that case. So, I just find it a bit unsettling to award the 1999 MVP to Pedro while not giving it to him in 2000 as well. A 1.74 ERA in a year where the park-adjusted league ERA is around 5.00 is just mindboggling. I very well may change my 2000 choice (again) from Giambi to Pedro.

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IMHO....Pedro was the MVP.

And HGM... you really, really love Pedro, don't you? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

And HGM... you really, really love Pedro, don't you? :rolleyes:

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No. I just don't have an irrational hatred of him that blinds me from accurately evaluating his value.

Please look at Pedro Martinez's full career one day. It may be a surprise to you, but he played for some other teams before joining the Mets, and while on those other teams, he rattled off a string of seasons that are really the most dominant peak seasons the game has ever seen from a pitcher.

Houston, I have a question: Why do you always quote yourself?

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

2005:

AL MVP: Alex Rodriguez
NL MVP: Derrek Lee
AL Cy Young: Johan Santana
NL Cy Young: Roger Clemens

Only agreed on one award here, the AL MVP. In the NL, I love Pujols, but Lee just had a slightly better season. He had a slightly better bat, slightly better glove, about equal on the basepaths...Career year, but the most valuable player in the NL. The AL Cy Young going to Bartolo Colon was, in my opinion, a great travesty, and goes to show just how much the Win has a stranglehold on mainstream pitcher evaluation. The only statistic that Santana trailed Colon in was wins. In every meaningful statistic, Santana trounced Colon. He had a better ERA, ERA+, WHIP, more strikeouts, better VORP, better WARP, better EVERYTHING. Santana was the clear best pitcher in the AL, but because he didn't get wins, he lost out on the award (and actually placed 3rd, behind Mariano Rivera as well). In the NL, Chris Carpenter, Dontrelle Willis, and Roy Oswalt all had phenomenal seasons and racked up more innings than Roger Clemens, but the sheer quality of Roger's innings puts him ahead of them, in my opinion (I also have Andy Pettite slightly ahead of that group). Clemens had a 226 ERA+, Pettitte was at 177. Oswalt, Carpenter, and Willis had ERA+'s of 144, 151, and 149, respectively. It's a pretty significant gap, one that is not made up by 20-30 innings.

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2005 was a really awesome year.

Too bad every year has sucked since then D:

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Houston, I have a question: Why do you always quote yourself?

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Uh, what? I'll quote myself if I am referring to something I previously said. But anyway, back to the topic....

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Originally Posted by dickay

Oh i'm not knocking him although i could have ellaborated a bit more. Its great he's that dedicated to the research.

I will say this though for Houston and everyone else. I too was a sports junkie throughout highschool and into my early 20's. It consumed me, I was very much into stats and the like and even today as I am now 30 I still watch a great deal of sports and am the first pick when choosing teams for trivial pursuit.

However......from my experience I strongly recommend you find something productive to take up at least some of that time, and by productive I guess this is the best way to put it. Playing 'trival pursuit' last new years eve with some close friend, one of the girls said to me "its amazing how much useless information is in your brain" after I nailed some tough old sports trivia questions. It made me realize she was RIGHT! The information is quite useless to me now as a 30 year old with a kid (and another on the way, just found out a couple days ago!!).

You can't get the time digesting useless information back. Its fun as a 'hobby' but let it be just that. Don't let it consume you. If you realistically have a shot and are pursuing something in sports entertainment, commentary, etc....than I can see how this is a great way to spend your time. If not....I do think you should ask the point, and if you too will wish you had the time back 12 years from now.

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Reminds me of the scene in the movie "Diner" when Steve Guttenberg's character makes his fiancee take a "Baltimore Colts" quiz before the marriage. I'd have to agree though, no information is useless. Maybe some people don't take much stock into someone's knowledge when it doesn't apply to something that makes money, but then all you can do in life is experience and learn. One thing is nowadays it's so much easier to find information (love wikipedia) then back 10-15 years ago. Of course just cause I know that Ron Guidry went 25-3 in 1978 or that Dave Winfield was drafted by the NFL, NBA and ABA. Or maybe that they noone ever says "Play it again, Sam" in Casablanca (film, another type of information that i've been told was useless). Or that Kurt Cobain tried out for the Melvins.
I'd prefer to be friends with people who had a passion for knowledge, be it about movies, baseball or ocean currents. A passion for knowledge about anything should never be considered useless.

Okay, I've changed my mind on the 2000 AL MVP. Pedro it is.

1999:

AL MVP: Pedro Martinez
NL MVP: Chipper Jones
AL Cy: Pedro Martinez
NL Cy: Randy Johnson

Only disagreement here comes in the AL, as expected. As I mentioned in a previous post, Pedro was jobbed out of the BBWAA award because a couple of writers completely left him off their 10-player ballot, citing that they don't think pitchers should win the MVP award, in blatant disregard of the award rules. What makes it even crazier is that one of the writers that openly admitted to leaving Pedro Martinez off his ballot completely had, in the very year prior, 1998, listed RICK HELLING among his 10 players on his MVP ballot. I don't think these writers ever lost their voting privileges or anything, but if I was in charge, you could bet your ass that they'd be prohibited from voting for future awards.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

And HGM... you really, really love Pedro, don't you? :rolleyes:

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Show me a pitcher whose arm is hanging by a thread who's pitched well, if they've pitched at all. In Adjusted ERA+ there is one man in the history of the Major Leagues of Baseball above Pedro and he pitches an inning at a time: Mo Rivera. That's it. In 2000 when the AL was drunk with offense and the league ERA was 4.91, Pedro's was 1.74! A 4.15 career K/BB ratio. In his career opponents have hit .213/.275/.335 off him. For reference John McDonald is a career .236/.276/.310 hitter. When you're making hitters look like Johnny Mac (and it pains me to use him as an example because I'm a huge fan of his), you're an outstanding pitcher. He has a lifetime WHIP of 1.05. Career K/9IP: 10.08 vs career H/9IP: 7.03 and career H+BB/9IP: 9.46.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. He's never pitched for my Blue Jays, but I know greatness when I see it. If he doesn't go into the Hall of Fame unanimously the first time he's on the ballot, it won't be a reflection on him, but a reflection on those ink stained wretches/hacks that make up the BBWAA and their non-stop nattering about career wins being the only relevant statistic, completely glossing over his lifetime .684 winning percentage. I shouldn't even be using winning percentage because that's more up to the team the pitcher plays on, but that's a pretty awesome winning percentage: it would give a team 111 wins in a 162 game season.

Yeah, yeah we get it he was disappointing for your beloved Mets but he was injured a lot. There's another way to look at it though. You've been able to watch one of the greatest pitchers in the history of the game. It's not his fault your team chose to acquire him when he was starting to wear down is it?

1998:

AL MVP: Albert Belle
NL MVP: Mark McGwire
AL Cy: Roger Clemens
NL Cy: Greg Maddux

This time, we've got only one agreement, and that is Roger Clemens for the AL Cy Young. Let's take a look at each of the disagreements, in order of the ease I had choosing.

Mark McGwire garnering just 2 of the first place votes in the BBWAA balloting remains one of baseball's great mysteries to me. Sammy Sosa played on the better team, and had 11 more RBI...but McGwire trounced him elsewhere. McGwire's OBP was .470, almost 100 points higher than Sosa's. That alone is enough for me to easily hand it to Big Mac, without even making mention of McGwire's .752 slugging percentage or 216 OPS+, numbers that dwarfed Sosa's .647 slugging and 160 OPS+.

Tom Glavine's BBWAA Cy Young award once again shows the dominance of the Win. My choice, Greg Maddux, didn't even get a first place vote in the BBWAA voting. I have Glavine 4th, behind Maddux, Kevin Brown, and Trevor Hoffman, the last of whom actually received more first place votes from the BBWAA than the winner Glavine did. Brown and Maddux both had 2 less wins than Glavine, but each pitched 20+ more innings AND had a lower ERA. Maddux's 187 ERA+ trounced Brown though (Glavine was also ahead of Brown in ERA+, but the difference was small enough that the innings put Brown over Glavine).

For the AL MVP, I'm still wavering in my decision. The one thing that I do know, though, is that Juan Gonzalez won two BBWAA MVP's (1996 and 1998) and didn't deserve either, but when BBWAA members circle jerk over the RBI (unless you happen to be an ass like Albert Belle), that's what happens. I have numerous players over Juan in 1998, including but not limited to Albert Belle, Alex Rodriguez, Nomar Garciaparra, Ken Griffey Jr., Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams, and Mo Vaughn. My final choice comes down to (and as I'm writing this, I still have yet to make a final decision) Ken Griffey, Albert Belle, and Alex Rodriguez. All 3 played in basically all of their team's games. A-Rod played a solid shortstop, while posting a 40-40 season. I think it's easy to eliminate him from these 3, so it's down to Griffey and Belle.

Belle, hilariously, placed 8th in the BBWAA voting, in no small part due to him being at odds with a good percentage of the media. Belle had what was arguably his best season outside of the strike-shortened 1994 year, hitting .328/.399/.655 with 49 homers, 48 doubles, and 152 RBI. He walked 81 times while striking out just 84 times. He posted a league-leading 171 OPS+.

Griffey, on the other hand, nearly duplicated his 1997 season EXACTLY, save for some singles. Check it out:

1997: .304/.382/.646, 125 R, 185 H, 34 2B, 3 3B, 56 HR, 147 RBI, 76 BB, 121 K, 165 OPS+
1998: .284/.365/.611, 120 R, 180 H, 33 2B, 3 3B, 56 HR, 146 RBI, 76 BB, 121, 150 OPS+

It's truly a remarkable level of consistency. Griffey clearly falls short of Belle on offense. However, the reason this is such a tough decision is because Griffey played superb defense in center field, while Belle was, at best, an average corner outfielder. VORP has Belle as being a full 20 runs better, and that compares them to player's at their own position. WPA, a context-dependent stat, has Belle almost a win and a half better. In the end, I'm going to give this one to Joey Belle by a razor-thin margin.

Keep it up Houston. I want to see your thoughts on the 1982 AL Cy Young Award: Pete Vuckovich: WTF!

1997:

AL MVP: Ken Griffey, Jr.
NL MVP: Mike Piazza
AL Cy: Roger Clemens
NL Cy: Pedro Martinez

One disagreement this time. Pedro Martinez becomes the second pitcher to win an HGM Cy Young in both leagues (first was Roger Clemens). The one disagreement came with the NL MVP. Larry Walker was given the BBWAA award, and at first glance, his numbers look otherworldly. He put up a 1.172 OPS - .366/.452/.720, 49 HR, 130 RBI, 33 SB. Mike Piazza, on the other hand, hit .362/.431/.638, 40 HR, 124 RBI. Looks like a clear win for Walker, right? That's what it was for the BBWAA who voted overwhelmingly in favor of Walker (22 first place votes, Piazza and Jeff Bagwell picked up 3 apiece). However, Walker played 81 of his games in Coors Field when it was COORS FIELD. There was no humidor, no nothing. It was just a pure launching pad. Piazza played 81 games in Dodger Stadium, when it was still a heavy pitchers park. Piazza comes out 7 points ahead of Walker in OPS+. A 185 OPS+ from a catcher is just...insane. It's the highest single season OPS+ for a catcher of all-time. Second is...Piazza himself with 172, and then Javy Lopez with 169 comes in third. Piazza also holds the fourth place spot, tied with Johnny Bench, with 166. Piazza is clearly the MVP, in my opinion. Craig Biggio also deserves a mention, as he really had a fantastic season. If the mainstream media wants to point to a guy who did "all the little things", and actually made it valuable, Biggio's there guy. I'd even rank Biggio over Walker in 1997 (as well as Barry Bonds and maybe Jeff Bagwell).

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

Keep it up Houston. I want to see your thoughts on the 1982 AL Cy Young Award: Pete Vuckovich: WTF!

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I'm definitely keeping it up. I'm enjoying it a lot more than even I expected. I'd like to thank YEAH DAAAAWG who suggested providing my reasoning if my choice differed from the BBWAA. I hadn't thought of that, and I think it really adds something to this project (for you guys, the readers). I'm going to, at first, go back to the start of both awards, and then compare how often I agreed/disagree with the BBWAA, but I'm likely going to take it one step further, and choose MVPs/Cy Youngs for each season back to 1901, and then maybe throw out some statistics like which players won multiple awards from me, etc.

As for Pete Vuckovich, just took a quick glance at that, 1.50 WHIP? That has got to be the highest WHIP for a Cy Young winner ever!

I'm wondering, and maybe you know this HGM, what is the highest OPS+ ever produced by a player who played the majority of his games in Coors Field? If only they played all 162 games their, they could put up some crazy numbers.

I was looking through wikipedia earlier seeing if they had anything and check this out

"The September 14, 2008 game was the only in Coors Field history to have both teams scoreless through nine innings."

isnt that crazy?

Keep it up though HGM.

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Originally Posted by 200tang

I'm wondering, and maybe you know this HGM, what is the highest OPS+ ever produced by a player who played the majority of his games in Coors Field? If only they played all 162 games their, they could put up some crazy numbers.

Keep it up though HGM.

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Well, OPS+ is meant to adjust for things like Coors Field.

Here is a list of highest OPS's by a Rockie. Larry Walker's 1997 tops it, barely beating out his own 1999.

Here is a list of highest OPS+'s by a Rockie. Again, Larry Walker 1997. This time, Todd Helton takes over the next 3 slots, as he's played more when Coors was less of a hitter's park.

Oh I know its meant to adjust, I meant numbers as in like homers and everything :P Not park adjusted stats.

Imagine though if the Rockies got Pujols and all the other teams in their divisions somehow built exact stadiums of Coors at the exact same elevation and everything. Now I want to try it out in Mogul...although I wonder if the game would knock his stats down through the course of 162 games to be "realistic"

Pedro has 4 Cy Youngs, 2 MVPs already... I think I'm gonna be sick :mad:

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Pedro has 4 Cy Youngs, 2 MVPs already... I think I'm gonna be sick :mad:

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Don't worry, we're out of his years as one of the greatest pitchers to ever take the mound, so he won't be getting any more HGM hardware.

That's too bad, Pedro is my favorite pitcher of all time :C

1996:

AL MVP: Alex Rodriguez
NL MVP: Barry Bonds
AL Cy: Pat Hentgen
NL Cy: Kevin Brown

Only one agreement this time, and that being the fairly easy call of Pat Hentgen for the AL Cy Young award (although Hentgen barely nudged Andy Pettitte in the BBWAA voting, getting 110 points to Pettitte's 104. Really, there's that much of a difference between 21 wins and 20 wins that the guy with the ERA half a run higher in 40 less innings was better? :rolleyes:). Meanwhile, over in the National League, John Smoltz waltzed to an uncontested victory on the strength of 24 wins, even though his own teammate Greg Maddux pitched better and Kevin Brown had a 1.89 ERA. Brown's 216 ERA+ seals the deal for me.

This was Juan Gonzalez's first of two undeserved AL MVP awards (detailed the other in 1998). Alex Rodriguez did nearly beat him out in the BBWAA voting, getting 10 1st place votes to Gonzalez's 11, and falling just 3 points short of a tie. A-Rod did everything offensively better than Gonzalez except rack up RBI's (gee, wonder why. It'd have nothing to do with their placement in the batting order and the hitters in front of them, would it?), PLUS did it as a solid defensive shortstop while Gonzalez was a poor defensive corner outfielder. A-Rod should've ran away with this one at the tender, young age of 20.

The NL was a much closer call. Gary Sheffield nearly matched Bonds in hitting prowess, but Bonds's significant edge in the field and on the basepaths puts Bonds clearly ahead of Sheffield. Mike Piazza had another MVP-quality season, and Ken Caminiti had his fluke great season, combining excellent offense with superb defense at the hot corner. However, Bonds was just a force in every aspect of the game, securing his 5th HGM MVP award.

1995:

AL MVP: Albert Belle
NL MVP: Greg Maddux
AL Cy: Randy Johnson
NL Cy: Greg Maddux

Agreed on both the Cy Young's, but on neither of the MVP's. The Cy Young's were hilariously easy calls, as Maddux and Johnson both utterly decimated the competition. Johnson joins Pedro and Roger Clemens as the only three pitchers to win HGM Cy's in both leagues.

Albert Belle narrowly lost to Mo Vaughn in the BBWAA election, no doubt due to him often being at odds with the media. There was literally nothing that Vaughn did better than Belle that year. They had an equal amount of RBI's, but other than that, Belle was clearly superior. He played a more important position and fielded it better. He had more home runs, more doubles, more walks, less strikeouts, a higher batting average, a higher on-base percentage, a higher slugging percentage, a higher OPS+ just to show it wasn't a park illusion, more runs scored, more games played, the list goes on and on. Belle got jobbed out of this award, clearly. He gets his second HGM MVP.

The NL MVP award was hotly contested with the BBWAA, with four players - Barry Larkin, Dante Bichette, Greg Maddux, and Mike Piazza - receiving first place votes. Larkin was actually better in 1996 than he was in 1995 when he won the award. Dante Bichette was a huge beneficiary of Coors Field. His numbers pale in comparison to a large chunk of the league once you adjust for home park. I have Barry Bonds second behind Greg Maddux, and he placed 11th in the BBWAA voting, despite leading the league in many offensive categories. Maddux over the two strike-shortened years was ridiculous, as hew threw over 400 innings at a 265 ERA+ level.

1994:

AL MVP: Frank Thomas
NL MVP: Jeff Bagwell
AL Cy: David Cone
NL Cy: Greg Maddux

This was the first (and only) year since 2003 that I agreed with all four of the BBWAA selections. Greg Maddux had another awesome, MVP-quality pitching season, but Jeff Bagwell put up ridiculous offensive numbers in the strike-shortened season, sufficient enough to beat out Maddux's ridiculous numbers. Frank Thomas put up similar numbers in the AL. The AL Cy was a closer race than the BBWAA voting results would have you believe. David Cone barely beat out Jimmy Key in the voting...Why? Jimmy Key had 17 wins. David Cone had 16. It really is amazing how much emphasis is placed on wins. That's just an absurd amount. It's nice to see that in the modern day, while it's still undoubtedly there, the influence of the Win is dampened. If this was 1994, there's no way in hell that Tim Lincecum would've easily beat Brandon Webb. In fact, Webb likely would've ran away with the award. At any rate, I have Jimmy Key 5th that year, behind Cone, Mike Mussina, Randy Johnson, and Roger Clemens. I have Cone just a tad ahead of the Big Unit. Clemens got no love from the voters in 1994, despite leading the league in ERA+, because he had a mediocre 9-7 record.

1993:

AL MVP: John Olerud
NL MVP: Barry Bonds
AL Cy: Kevin Appier
NL Cy: Greg Maddux

Agreed on the NL, and disagreed on the AL. Frank Thomas won his first of two BBWAA MVP's in 1993. John Olerud, though, was better. Olerud paced him in most offensive catgeories, and also played a better first base. The AL Cy going to Jack McDowell is another illustration of the win emphasis, and I'm really getting tired of saying that. McDowell was behind multiple pitchers in everything besides wins. Kevin Appier, meanwhile, had a 30 point edge in ERA+ over the entire American League. He trailed both McDowell and Randy Johnson in innings, but that huge difference in quality makes me easily give this one to Appier.

1992:

AL MVP: Frank Thomas
NL MVP: Barry Bonds
AL Cy: Roger Clemens
NL Cy: Greg Maddux

As with 1993, I think the BBWAA got the NL right, while missing (badly) in the AL. Dennis Eckersley had a great season, but it wasn't so far in another realm that he would deserve the Cy Young, let alone the MVP as well. His 1990, now THAT was an otherworldly year, and he placed 5th and 6th in the Cy Young and MVP voting, respectively. Roger Clemens placed 3rd behind Eck and Jack McDowell (there he is again!), despite pitching circles around them. He gets my Cy Young. For the MVP, Frank Thomas placed 8th in the BBWAA voting, largely because the skills he exhibited in 1992 weren't appreciated much at that time (namely, not making outs). Thomas had a lackluster 24 home runs, but he trounced the league in on-base percentage and placed 3rd in both batting average and slugging percentage.

1991:

AL MVP: Cal Ripken, Jr.
NL MVP: Barry Bonds
AL Cy: Roger Clemens
NL Cy: Tom Glavine

This was an easy year, and the only disagreement came in the NL for the MVP, where Terry Pendleton inexplicably beat out Barry Bonds in the BBWAA voting. This was the young Bonds, showcasing excellent offense, speed, and defense, instead of the pure power and walks game he'd later develop. I also have no clue how Cecil Fielder nearly beat out Cal Ripken in the AL BBWAA MVP vote.

1990:

AL MVP: Rickey Henderson
NL MVP: Barry Bonds
AL Cy: Roger Clemens
NL Cy: Frank Viola

The early 90's turned out to be extremely easy, as I flew threw doing them and I'm very confident in my choices. I think the BBWAA got both the MVP's right, while missing on both Cy Youngs. I'd just like to note that Barry Bonds now has two separate streaks of 4 consecutive HGM MVP's, and a total of 9.

Bob Welch had a basically unheard of 27 wins, leading him to earning the BBWAA Cy Young. This was also the year that Dennis Eckersley had a sick season out of the pen. In any other year, I'd likely award the Cy to Eck, but this wasn't any other year. Roger Clemens posted a 1.93 ERA, good for a 213 ERA+, which led the league by over 50 points. Clemens takes his third consecutive (working backwards) HGM Cy Young, and 6th overall.

In the NL, Doug Drabek won the BBWAA Cy Young basically uncontested thanks to a shiny 22-6 record. Frank Viola, however, tossed 19 more innings at a higher quality. The NL leader in pitcher VORP for 1990 takes home the NL HGM Cy Young.

1989:

AL MVP: Bret Saberhagen
NL MVP: Kevin Mitchell
AL Cy: Bret Saberhagen
NL Cy: Orel Hershiser

Ah, finally, a tough year to evaluate! I ended up agreeing with the NL MVP and AL Cy Young and disagreeing with the AL MVP and NL Cy Young. I also saw the NL MVP race as a very tight one between Kevin Mitchell and Will Clark, the latter of whom did place 2nd in the BBWAA voting but wasn't particularly close.

For the AL MVP, I identified a boatload of potential candidates, including some like Wade Boggs who barely got a sniff from the BBWAA. I think the 1989 AL closely resembled the 2008 AL, in which I awarded pitcher Cliff Lee the MVP. There was a host of tightly grouped excellent position players, but none of which really stood out, while there was a pitcher (or in the case of the 2008 AL, two pitchers) that really had a phenomenal year. Saberhagen's 1989 dwarfed even Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay in 2008. I had Fred McGriff and Robin Yount (the BBWAA winner) close behind Saberhagen, but this was Bret's year.

The BBWAA awarded the NL Cy Young to closer Mark Davis. As you've likely gathered, I don't like awarding the Cy Young to closers. I went with a guy that would've easily taken home the award had he better support - Orel Hershiser. His 15-15 record is rather ugly, but he tossed 257 innings of 148 ERA+ ball which puts him solidly above the 2nd and 3rd place BBWAA finishers, Mike Scott and Greg Maddux, both of whom threw less innings at a lower quality.

1988:

AL MVP: Jose Canseco
NL MVP: Will Clark
AL Cy: Frank Viola
NL Cy: Orel Hershiser

I agreed on all but the NL MVP. I had it real close between Will Clark and Kirk Gibson, but Clark's combination of better offense in more games led me to choose Clark. 160 OPS+, fine defense at first base. People often forget what a great player Clark was at his peak.

Frank Viola joins three of the top pitchers ever - Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, and Pedro Martinez - on the list of pitchers who have won the HGM Cy Young in both the AL and the NL. Orel Hershiser takes his second consecutive award, as he posted nearly identical seasons in both 1988 and 1989 (except, of course, if you only look at wins and losses).

1987:

AL MVP: Alan Trammell
NL MVP: Tony Gwynn
AL Cy: Roger Clemens
NL Cy: Orel Hershiser

Only one agreement here - Roger Clemens in the AL. He gets his 7th HGM Cy Young. The two BBWAA MVP choices - George Bell and Andre Dawson - are often cited in discussions of the worst MVP picks of all-time, and I concur with that sentiment.

Alan Trammell had a monster year in 1987. He had a 155 OPS+ (Bell was at 146). Add to that Trammell's position - shortstop - while Bell played the outfield. Than add that Trammell was an incredible defensive shortstop. It's really quite clear that Trammell was the more valuable player.

There were a host of better options than Andre Dawson in the NL. What makes the selection of Dawson even more wacky is that he played for a last place team. Ozzie Smith placed a close 2nd in the BBWAA voting. I give the award to Tony Gwynn, who came in 8th with the BBWAA despite a shiny .370 batting average.

Once again, the NL Cy Young voters gave the award to a relief pitcher. I can sort of understand why...there really wasn't a true standout starter. Rick Reuschel received 8 first place votes to Steve Bedrosian's 9, but still managed to place 3rd, one point behind Rick Sutcliffe. My pick - Orel Hershiser - placed fourth with 2 first place votes. Hershiser led the league in innings while putting up a 131 ERA+, equivalent to Reuschel but in nearly 40 more innings. Having been born in the late 80's and growing up in the 90s, I knew that Hershiser was a very good pitcher, but I never knew just how good he was at his peak. This is now his third consecutive HGM Cy Young (but it'll be his last). Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Roger Clemens, and Johan Santana round out the list of pitchers to have won three or more consecutive HGM Cy Young awards.

Though I am a Canadian baseball fan, I would like to thank you for stripping George Bell and long time Expo Andre Dawson (Dawson in the NL? Sometimes I wonder what the hell is in the writers' coffee, never mind the players') of their undeserved MVP awards.

I never thought I would see Kevin Appier and Pat Hentgen in this discussion. I am really surprised but I cant argue obviously. But I think injuries cost Saberhagen on a HOF career. His control was uncanny compared to most pitchers.

Good stuff HGM, when I was younger, I used to argue with Friends that Dawson was thew worst MVP pick of all time. Also, I thought it was silly the the Ec won the MVP in 1991. Good stuff. I remember Barry Bonds in the 1991 Playoffs, it was my first memory of watching him (on TV) I know who he was, but actually watching a live Pirates game is few and far between ;), my Dad said "He look Bobby, its Barry Bonds, he is going to be one of the best players to ever grace the game". That still rings in my ears, and how right he was..

My Friends and I used to argue about who was the best team in the 90's. My pick was always
1. Braves
2. Yankees
3. BlueJays

His,
1. Yankees
2. Bluejays
3. Braves

His picks were only based off of WS Winners.

Mine would be 1. Braves, because of the consistancy. 2. Yankees, because of the consistancy and the 3 titles, and 3. Cleveland because of how dominant they were from '93 on. They had some truly remarkable teams that caught some of the worst luck in postseason play over that stretch.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

1991:

AL MVP: Cal Ripken, Jr.
NL MVP: Barry Bonds
AL Cy: Roger Clemens
NL Cy: Tom Glavine

This was an easy year, and the only disagreement came in the NL for the MVP, where Terry Pendleton inexplicably beat out Barry Bonds in the BBWAA voting. This was the young Bonds, showcasing excellent offense, speed, and defense, instead of the pure power and walks game he'd later develop. I also have no clue how Cecil Fielder nearly beat out Cal Ripken in the AL BBWAA MVP vote.

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Wasnt that the year Cecil hit 51 homers? I imagine that pretty number is why Cecil beat him out.

ragecage: Fielder hit 51 in 1990.

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Originally Posted by boomboom

My Friends and I used to argue about who was the best team in the 90's. My pick was always
1. Braves
2. Yankees
3. BlueJays

His,
1. Yankees
2. Bluejays
3. Braves

His picks were only based off of WS Winners.

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Let me preface this by saying I'm a die-hard Blue Jay fan. They do not belong in the top 3 in the 90's. For me it's the Braves, the Yankees, and the Indians in that order. If you want to talk about the 11 years from 1983-1993 the Blue Jays are #1, Oakland's in there somewhere, and maybe the Cards?

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Originally Posted by ragecage

Wasnt that the year Cecil hit 51 homers? I imagine that pretty number is why Cecil beat him out.

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As actionjackson said, Cecil hit 51 in 1990, where he placed a very close 2nd (again) to Rickey Henderson. In 1991 he hit .261/.347/.513, 44 HR, 133 RBI, 133 OPS+. Ripken hit .323/.374/.566, 34 HR, 114 RBI, 162 OPS+. Than, of course, Cecil was a blah defensive first basemen and Ripken was a very good defensive shortstop. Jose Canseco had an almost identical year to Cecil, except beat him out slightly in the rate stats, while having a less amount of RBIs, but more stolen bases, and he placed a distant 4th. I guess Cecil was just getting a ton of love around then.