A little project I'm thinking of doing (HGM's Historical MVP/Cy Young Choices)

Houston, I have a question: Why do you always quote yourself?

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

2005:

AL MVP: Alex Rodriguez
NL MVP: Derrek Lee
AL Cy Young: Johan Santana
NL Cy Young: Roger Clemens

Only agreed on one award here, the AL MVP. In the NL, I love Pujols, but Lee just had a slightly better season. He had a slightly better bat, slightly better glove, about equal on the basepaths...Career year, but the most valuable player in the NL. The AL Cy Young going to Bartolo Colon was, in my opinion, a great travesty, and goes to show just how much the Win has a stranglehold on mainstream pitcher evaluation. The only statistic that Santana trailed Colon in was wins. In every meaningful statistic, Santana trounced Colon. He had a better ERA, ERA+, WHIP, more strikeouts, better VORP, better WARP, better EVERYTHING. Santana was the clear best pitcher in the AL, but because he didn't get wins, he lost out on the award (and actually placed 3rd, behind Mariano Rivera as well). In the NL, Chris Carpenter, Dontrelle Willis, and Roy Oswalt all had phenomenal seasons and racked up more innings than Roger Clemens, but the sheer quality of Roger's innings puts him ahead of them, in my opinion (I also have Andy Pettite slightly ahead of that group). Clemens had a 226 ERA+, Pettitte was at 177. Oswalt, Carpenter, and Willis had ERA+'s of 144, 151, and 149, respectively. It's a pretty significant gap, one that is not made up by 20-30 innings.

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2005 was a really awesome year.

Too bad every year has sucked since then D:

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Houston, I have a question: Why do you always quote yourself?

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Uh, what? I'll quote myself if I am referring to something I previously said. But anyway, back to the topic....

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Originally Posted by dickay

Oh i'm not knocking him although i could have ellaborated a bit more. Its great he's that dedicated to the research.

I will say this though for Houston and everyone else. I too was a sports junkie throughout highschool and into my early 20's. It consumed me, I was very much into stats and the like and even today as I am now 30 I still watch a great deal of sports and am the first pick when choosing teams for trivial pursuit.

However......from my experience I strongly recommend you find something productive to take up at least some of that time, and by productive I guess this is the best way to put it. Playing 'trival pursuit' last new years eve with some close friend, one of the girls said to me "its amazing how much useless information is in your brain" after I nailed some tough old sports trivia questions. It made me realize she was RIGHT! The information is quite useless to me now as a 30 year old with a kid (and another on the way, just found out a couple days ago!!).

You can't get the time digesting useless information back. Its fun as a 'hobby' but let it be just that. Don't let it consume you. If you realistically have a shot and are pursuing something in sports entertainment, commentary, etc....than I can see how this is a great way to spend your time. If not....I do think you should ask the point, and if you too will wish you had the time back 12 years from now.

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Reminds me of the scene in the movie "Diner" when Steve Guttenberg's character makes his fiancee take a "Baltimore Colts" quiz before the marriage. I'd have to agree though, no information is useless. Maybe some people don't take much stock into someone's knowledge when it doesn't apply to something that makes money, but then all you can do in life is experience and learn. One thing is nowadays it's so much easier to find information (love wikipedia) then back 10-15 years ago. Of course just cause I know that Ron Guidry went 25-3 in 1978 or that Dave Winfield was drafted by the NFL, NBA and ABA. Or maybe that they noone ever says "Play it again, Sam" in Casablanca (film, another type of information that i've been told was useless). Or that Kurt Cobain tried out for the Melvins.
I'd prefer to be friends with people who had a passion for knowledge, be it about movies, baseball or ocean currents. A passion for knowledge about anything should never be considered useless.

Okay, I've changed my mind on the 2000 AL MVP. Pedro it is.

1999:

AL MVP: Pedro Martinez
NL MVP: Chipper Jones
AL Cy: Pedro Martinez
NL Cy: Randy Johnson

Only disagreement here comes in the AL, as expected. As I mentioned in a previous post, Pedro was jobbed out of the BBWAA award because a couple of writers completely left him off their 10-player ballot, citing that they don't think pitchers should win the MVP award, in blatant disregard of the award rules. What makes it even crazier is that one of the writers that openly admitted to leaving Pedro Martinez off his ballot completely had, in the very year prior, 1998, listed RICK HELLING among his 10 players on his MVP ballot. I don't think these writers ever lost their voting privileges or anything, but if I was in charge, you could bet your ass that they'd be prohibited from voting for future awards.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

And HGM... you really, really love Pedro, don't you? :rolleyes:

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Show me a pitcher whose arm is hanging by a thread who's pitched well, if they've pitched at all. In Adjusted ERA+ there is one man in the history of the Major Leagues of Baseball above Pedro and he pitches an inning at a time: Mo Rivera. That's it. In 2000 when the AL was drunk with offense and the league ERA was 4.91, Pedro's was 1.74! A 4.15 career K/BB ratio. In his career opponents have hit .213/.275/.335 off him. For reference John McDonald is a career .236/.276/.310 hitter. When you're making hitters look like Johnny Mac (and it pains me to use him as an example because I'm a huge fan of his), you're an outstanding pitcher. He has a lifetime WHIP of 1.05. Career K/9IP: 10.08 vs career H/9IP: 7.03 and career H+BB/9IP: 9.46.

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. He's never pitched for my Blue Jays, but I know greatness when I see it. If he doesn't go into the Hall of Fame unanimously the first time he's on the ballot, it won't be a reflection on him, but a reflection on those ink stained wretches/hacks that make up the BBWAA and their non-stop nattering about career wins being the only relevant statistic, completely glossing over his lifetime .684 winning percentage. I shouldn't even be using winning percentage because that's more up to the team the pitcher plays on, but that's a pretty awesome winning percentage: it would give a team 111 wins in a 162 game season.

Yeah, yeah we get it he was disappointing for your beloved Mets but he was injured a lot. There's another way to look at it though. You've been able to watch one of the greatest pitchers in the history of the game. It's not his fault your team chose to acquire him when he was starting to wear down is it?

1998:

AL MVP: Albert Belle
NL MVP: Mark McGwire
AL Cy: Roger Clemens
NL Cy: Greg Maddux

This time, we've got only one agreement, and that is Roger Clemens for the AL Cy Young. Let's take a look at each of the disagreements, in order of the ease I had choosing.

Mark McGwire garnering just 2 of the first place votes in the BBWAA balloting remains one of baseball's great mysteries to me. Sammy Sosa played on the better team, and had 11 more RBI...but McGwire trounced him elsewhere. McGwire's OBP was .470, almost 100 points higher than Sosa's. That alone is enough for me to easily hand it to Big Mac, without even making mention of McGwire's .752 slugging percentage or 216 OPS+, numbers that dwarfed Sosa's .647 slugging and 160 OPS+.

Tom Glavine's BBWAA Cy Young award once again shows the dominance of the Win. My choice, Greg Maddux, didn't even get a first place vote in the BBWAA voting. I have Glavine 4th, behind Maddux, Kevin Brown, and Trevor Hoffman, the last of whom actually received more first place votes from the BBWAA than the winner Glavine did. Brown and Maddux both had 2 less wins than Glavine, but each pitched 20+ more innings AND had a lower ERA. Maddux's 187 ERA+ trounced Brown though (Glavine was also ahead of Brown in ERA+, but the difference was small enough that the innings put Brown over Glavine).

For the AL MVP, I'm still wavering in my decision. The one thing that I do know, though, is that Juan Gonzalez won two BBWAA MVP's (1996 and 1998) and didn't deserve either, but when BBWAA members circle jerk over the RBI (unless you happen to be an ass like Albert Belle), that's what happens. I have numerous players over Juan in 1998, including but not limited to Albert Belle, Alex Rodriguez, Nomar Garciaparra, Ken Griffey Jr., Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams, and Mo Vaughn. My final choice comes down to (and as I'm writing this, I still have yet to make a final decision) Ken Griffey, Albert Belle, and Alex Rodriguez. All 3 played in basically all of their team's games. A-Rod played a solid shortstop, while posting a 40-40 season. I think it's easy to eliminate him from these 3, so it's down to Griffey and Belle.

Belle, hilariously, placed 8th in the BBWAA voting, in no small part due to him being at odds with a good percentage of the media. Belle had what was arguably his best season outside of the strike-shortened 1994 year, hitting .328/.399/.655 with 49 homers, 48 doubles, and 152 RBI. He walked 81 times while striking out just 84 times. He posted a league-leading 171 OPS+.

Griffey, on the other hand, nearly duplicated his 1997 season EXACTLY, save for some singles. Check it out:

1997: .304/.382/.646, 125 R, 185 H, 34 2B, 3 3B, 56 HR, 147 RBI, 76 BB, 121 K, 165 OPS+
1998: .284/.365/.611, 120 R, 180 H, 33 2B, 3 3B, 56 HR, 146 RBI, 76 BB, 121, 150 OPS+

It's truly a remarkable level of consistency. Griffey clearly falls short of Belle on offense. However, the reason this is such a tough decision is because Griffey played superb defense in center field, while Belle was, at best, an average corner outfielder. VORP has Belle as being a full 20 runs better, and that compares them to player's at their own position. WPA, a context-dependent stat, has Belle almost a win and a half better. In the end, I'm going to give this one to Joey Belle by a razor-thin margin.

Keep it up Houston. I want to see your thoughts on the 1982 AL Cy Young Award: Pete Vuckovich: WTF!

1997:

AL MVP: Ken Griffey, Jr.
NL MVP: Mike Piazza
AL Cy: Roger Clemens
NL Cy: Pedro Martinez

One disagreement this time. Pedro Martinez becomes the second pitcher to win an HGM Cy Young in both leagues (first was Roger Clemens). The one disagreement came with the NL MVP. Larry Walker was given the BBWAA award, and at first glance, his numbers look otherworldly. He put up a 1.172 OPS - .366/.452/.720, 49 HR, 130 RBI, 33 SB. Mike Piazza, on the other hand, hit .362/.431/.638, 40 HR, 124 RBI. Looks like a clear win for Walker, right? That's what it was for the BBWAA who voted overwhelmingly in favor of Walker (22 first place votes, Piazza and Jeff Bagwell picked up 3 apiece). However, Walker played 81 of his games in Coors Field when it was COORS FIELD. There was no humidor, no nothing. It was just a pure launching pad. Piazza played 81 games in Dodger Stadium, when it was still a heavy pitchers park. Piazza comes out 7 points ahead of Walker in OPS+. A 185 OPS+ from a catcher is just...insane. It's the highest single season OPS+ for a catcher of all-time. Second is...Piazza himself with 172, and then Javy Lopez with 169 comes in third. Piazza also holds the fourth place spot, tied with Johnny Bench, with 166. Piazza is clearly the MVP, in my opinion. Craig Biggio also deserves a mention, as he really had a fantastic season. If the mainstream media wants to point to a guy who did "all the little things", and actually made it valuable, Biggio's there guy. I'd even rank Biggio over Walker in 1997 (as well as Barry Bonds and maybe Jeff Bagwell).

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Originally Posted by actionjackson

Keep it up Houston. I want to see your thoughts on the 1982 AL Cy Young Award: Pete Vuckovich: WTF!

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I'm definitely keeping it up. I'm enjoying it a lot more than even I expected. I'd like to thank YEAH DAAAAWG who suggested providing my reasoning if my choice differed from the BBWAA. I hadn't thought of that, and I think it really adds something to this project (for you guys, the readers). I'm going to, at first, go back to the start of both awards, and then compare how often I agreed/disagree with the BBWAA, but I'm likely going to take it one step further, and choose MVPs/Cy Youngs for each season back to 1901, and then maybe throw out some statistics like which players won multiple awards from me, etc.

As for Pete Vuckovich, just took a quick glance at that, 1.50 WHIP? That has got to be the highest WHIP for a Cy Young winner ever!

I'm wondering, and maybe you know this HGM, what is the highest OPS+ ever produced by a player who played the majority of his games in Coors Field? If only they played all 162 games their, they could put up some crazy numbers.

I was looking through wikipedia earlier seeing if they had anything and check this out

"The September 14, 2008 game was the only in Coors Field history to have both teams scoreless through nine innings."

isnt that crazy?

Keep it up though HGM.

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Originally Posted by 200tang

I'm wondering, and maybe you know this HGM, what is the highest OPS+ ever produced by a player who played the majority of his games in Coors Field? If only they played all 162 games their, they could put up some crazy numbers.

Keep it up though HGM.

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Well, OPS+ is meant to adjust for things like Coors Field.

Here is a list of highest OPS's by a Rockie. Larry Walker's 1997 tops it, barely beating out his own 1999.

Here is a list of highest OPS+'s by a Rockie. Again, Larry Walker 1997. This time, Todd Helton takes over the next 3 slots, as he's played more when Coors was less of a hitter's park.

Oh I know its meant to adjust, I meant numbers as in like homers and everything :P Not park adjusted stats.

Imagine though if the Rockies got Pujols and all the other teams in their divisions somehow built exact stadiums of Coors at the exact same elevation and everything. Now I want to try it out in Mogul...although I wonder if the game would knock his stats down through the course of 162 games to be "realistic"

Pedro has 4 Cy Youngs, 2 MVPs already... I think I'm gonna be sick :mad: