Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
I do love Favre... I love his attitude and approach to playing football. Always have, even as a lifelong Bears fan. I think he was a great QB, but I can't see him being too highly ranked. I'd have him probably in the top 15, but obviously not top 10, as I didn't list him there.
At the moment, I can't think of anyone I'd put above him after the top 10 I put down... maybe Jim Kelly. Not Moon or Fouts, I'd probably have them lower. I think I'd have Favre around 11 or 12...
However, depending on exactly what a "top QB list" is supposed to take into consideration, I could see Favre in the top 10, just outside the top 5, because of his total career value and ability to start every game and be solid or great year in and year out.
Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
I like Favre too, I just dont think hes the greatest QB thats all. I think if you take the top 10 QBs and scratch off their rookie season. I think you would be hard pressed to find one that had a season under .500. Favre had a 4-12 season not too long ago.
Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ragecage
I like Favre too, I just dont think hes the greatest QB thats all. I think if you take the top 10 QBs and scratch off their rookie season. I think you would be hard pressed to find one that had a season under .500. Favre had a 4-12 season not too long ago.
Elway was 5-11 in 1995 I believe.
People take winning games too far in the perspective of a QB. A lot of QB's have their best statistical seasons on mediocre teams. Why? They have to carry the team. Winning games is important in the career of a QB but Marino is one of the best all time and he doesn't wear a ring. Teams win games...not quarterbacks.
Favre is one of the top 20 QB's. But he can't be ranked too high because he is and always will be a gun slinger. He has the tendency to trust his arm too much and he gets over confident on the field. Thats why hes the career leader in INT's as well as yards and touchdowns.
Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
Elway's teams had a few mediocre seasons. In my view Elway is the "Nolan Ryan" of QB's. Vastly overrated by many. His fans expound on his positives, on what he did well, and overlook the negatives, his failings.
Teams win games, no doubt. You certainly cannot rate a QB primarily on his teams success.
Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Swampdog
Elway's teams had a few mediocre seasons. In my view Elway is the "Nolan Ryan" of QB's. Vastly overrated by many. His fans expound on his positives, on what he did well, and overlook the negatives, his failings.
Teams win games, no doubt. You certainly cannot rate a QB primarily on his teams success.
Overrated? Elway's negatives? Elway had some rough patches but surely you can't believe he is VASTLY overrated.
I wouldn't put him as the best QB of all time but Elway was certainly not VASTLY overrated.
Dan Reeves was a complete jerk to Elway. He restricted the movements of the offense and kept it straight to the book. Reeves' playbook requires a standing pocket and was as predictable as ever.
Elway certainly wasn't perfect but when Shanahan took over after 1995 the vast improvement in Elways numbers is a direct indication that it was the offense Reeves was running prior to that.
Going to six superbowls and winning two is certainly not vastly overrated.
Favre is the nolan ryan of QB's if anyone can be called that. His flaws were much greater then Johns.
Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
I will explain not only why Marino was one of the all-time greats but why he should be ranked up there with any other quarterback to ever play the game.
Marino was a nine-time Pro Bowl selection, a league MVP, a comeback player of the year, and an AFC Champion. When he retired, he owned virtually every significant passing record in league history. He totaled 61,361 yards, 420 touchdown passes, 252 interceptions, and had a career quarterback rating of 86.4. To put that into perspective, his 61,361 passing yards amounted for a distance longer then the entire state of Rhode Island.
Not only that, but he retired with 147 total wins in his career. He won more games than former quarterbacks Johnny Unitas, Joe Montana, Terry Bradshaw, Fran Tarkenton, Roger Staubach, Bart Starr, Dan Fouts, Warren Moon, and Troy Aikman. He’s also ahead of current quarterbacks Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.
Yes, Marino was that good.
He was also good at a very young age. He made it to the Pro Bowl in his rookie season after only starting nine games. That was only a sign of things to come. Even then people could not have imagined what he would do the following year.
In 1984, Dan Marino had one of the greatest—if not the greatest—season in NFL history. He threw for an NFL record 5,084 yards and 48 touchdown passes. He not only broke the single season touchdown pass record, he obliterated it. Before Marino threw his 48 touchdowns in 1984, the previous record was 36! That would be the equivalent of if a quarterback threw for 62 touchdowns today. Marino won the league MVP and carried his Miami Dolphins to Super Bowl XIX.
The Dolphins had an impressive record of 14-2, but they had to face a very balanced 49er team that came in at 15-1. Miami might have had the slight edge on offense, but not on defense. The 49ers had the No.1 ranked defense in the NFL, and on the other side of the ball they had Joe Montana. The Dolphins as a team (and the key word being team here) were outmatched.
They lost the game 38-16.
Not hard to lose when your defense allows the other team to score 38 points, your running game was so unreliable that they only carried the ball nine times, and your offensive line lets you get sacked four times.
Thus was the story of Dan Marino's career.
Marino never had the proper backing in his career, not by a long shot. People have often criticized Marino mercilessly for never winning a Super Bowl. My point here is, you can not do it alone.
I did a little research regarding the 17 Super Bowl winning teams during Dan Marino's career. I noticed that there were two things that stuck out almost every time. Most of those teams had a 1,000 yard rusher and most teams had a top 10 defense. I hit the books and totaled the frequencies.
13 out of the 17 teams possessed a 1,000 yard rusher.
16 out of the 17 teams had a Top-10 ranked defense.
Meanwhile, Marino played with a 1,000 yard rusher only once during his 17 seasons. He played with a top-10 defense in only four out of his 17 seasons.
Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
My point is he is probably the best example of a guy that had to do it "alone", when other QB's that are considered some of the greats had other tools to use to defeat you.
Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
I think another person who fits in to what ragecage said was Barry Sanders. Although, I personally never hear people knock Barry for never winning a Super Bowl in his career. Maybe because the QB position holds too much responsibility? Not sure.
Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
Quote:
Originally Posted by
200tang
I think another person who fits in to what ragecage said was Barry Sanders. Although, I personally never hear people knock Barry for never winning a Super Bowl in his career. Maybe because the QB position holds too much responsibility? Not sure.
I would agree with that. Barry was just flat out fun to watch...though he DID take a loss a little too often while looking for daylight.
Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
Re. Elway.
Never let the facts stand in the way of a fans opinion....
1) I said that Elway was "vastly overrated" by many, not by everyone. My view is that those that place Elway among the top 5 QB's ever, and even better, the best ever, have, in fact, vastly overrated him. Many people (including many that should know better) do rate Elway that highly. Thus, he is vastly overrated by many. I think that if you place Elway near the bottom of the top 20 or so, then he is properly rated. Thats my view.
2) Elway did not show "vast improvement" in 1995 when Shanahan took over. His best year to that point was 1993 (and the best of his career), when, at age 33, he finally started to figure things out in the NFL. Elway is not the only QB to struggle for several years, only to emerge in his 30's as a better player, but thats what he did. His 1995 season was not as good as 1993, and about the same as 1994. In no way did he suddenly show "vast improvement" in 1995.
3) Elway did NOT go to "six superbowls". He played in 5, and, as stated, his team did win two. Nothing to be ashamed of there. Of course, when he was able to finally help his team win a SB, he was no longer the best player on his team. Terrell Davis was, and Elway even stated as much at the time. Davis ran for over 3700 yards in those 2 super bowl years (1997, 1998). Davis was the reason the Broncos ended their 0-4 SB skid and upset Green Bay, not Elway.
The Broncos made 3 super bowls in the 80's by default. The NFC was a much stronger, deeper conference. The fact that those Broncos lost those 3 SB's by an average of 32 points a game is quite telling, I would say.
In fact, in 5 Super Bowls, Elway played pretty well in two, was quite mediocre in one (thats being kind), and totally stunk in the other two. I would say that Elway's performances in the super bowls was a microcosm of his career. Spectacular and brilliant at times, and lackluster and uninspired at other times.
And the "blame the coach" theory, well, I dont buy it. Thats a purely subjective view and the type of statement that people use to defend an athlete that fails to meet expectations. Much like Elway failed year after year for the first 10 years of his career.
I am not saying that Elway was bad....he was great, overall. But there are a lot of great QB's in NFL history. Of his contemporaries, Montana and Marino, just to name a couple, were clearly superior.
Elway had a fine career. He just wasn't as good as a lot of other guys who played the position, in my opinion.
Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
Quote:
1) I said that Elway was "vastly overrated" by many, not by everyone. My view is that those that place Elway among the top 5 QB's ever, and even better, the best ever, have, in fact, vastly overrated him. Many people (including many that should know better) do rate Elway that highly. Thus, he is vastly overrated by many. I think that if you place Elway near the bottom of the top 20 or so, then he is properly rated. Thats my view.
1) My apologies but you did not make yourself clear in that respect so I assumed you meant he wasn't good at all.
Quote:
2) Elway did not show "vast improvement" in 1995 when Shanahan took over. His best year to that point was 1993 (and the best of his career), when, at age 33, he finally started to figure things out in the NFL. Elway is not the only QB to struggle for several years, only to emerge in his 30's as a better player, but thats what he did. His 1995 season was not as good as 1993, and about the same as 1994. In no way did he suddenly show "vast improvement" in 1995.
My mistake. But in 1993 he did not "just start to figure the NFL out". His only 4,000 yard season does not qualify him as figuring the NFL out if that is your basis of qualification. In fact, in 1990 he put up 3,500 yards along with 15 touchdowns on a team that was downright awful. A career year does not mean you "just start" to figure the NFL out at all.
Quote:
3) Elway did NOT go to "six superbowls". He played in 5, and, as stated, his team did win two. Nothing to be ashamed of there. Of course, when he was able to finally help his team win a SB, he was no longer the best player on his team. Terrell Davis was, and Elway even stated as much at the time. Davis ran for over 3700 yards in those 2 super bowl years (1997, 1998). Davis was the reason the Broncos ended their 0-4 SB skid and upset Green Bay, not Elway.
That was my typo on the six. Now saying it was by default is just being plain dumb. The Broncos weren't just handed the playoff games. These were good teams in the AFC...just not great teams in history in the NFC (The 49ers, the Giants with Simms, The Redskins). Saying that the entire AFC was mediocre is just flat wrong. They just weren't the NFC. The Broncos teams of the 80's were good...just not THAT good.
Davis was given the ball an incredible amount of times in 97-98. Also, you don't think it might be the zone blocking schemes of the Broncos that allowed them to run the ball. (Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Reuben Droughns all succeeding in Denver uniforms but no where else)
Quote:
And the "blame the coach" theory, well, I dont buy it. Thats a purely subjective view and the type of statement that people use to defend an athlete that fails to meet expectations. Much like Elway failed year after year for the first 10 years of his career.
I am not saying that Elway was bad....he was great, overall. But there are a lot of great QB's in NFL history. Of his contemporaries, Montana and Marino, just to name a couple, were clearly superior.
1.) Please explain to Pat Bowlen then your theory. Because Dan Reeves was fired for the very reason of Elway's complaining. Elway and Reeves are not friends because of their relationship due to Reeves' offensive system. The West Coast offense of Shanahan took pressure off Elway and gave the ball to Davis.
2.) No one here is saying Montana and Marino were not superior.
3.) Failed year after year in the first ten years?
He broke 3,000 yards six times in his first ten years. Apart from his dismal ten game rookie record (which is understandable). His second season (which showed VAST improvement) was decent. The next seven years he was one of the better quarterbacks in the NFL. Failed is a huge exaggeration and it seems to me as if you have something against John Elway at this point.
Quote:
1985 25 DEN QB 16 16 11-5-0 327 605 54.0 3891 22 3.6 23 3.8 65 6.4 5.1 11.9 243.2 70.2 38 307 5.6 4.3 5.9
1986* 26 DEN QB 16 16 11-5-0 280 504 55.6 3485 19 3.8 13 2.6 53 6.9 6.1 12.4 217.8 79.0 32 233 6.1 5.3 6.0
1987* 27 DEN QB 12 12 8-3-1 224 410 54.6 3198 19 4.6 12 2.9 72 7.8 6.9 14.3 266.5 83.4 20 138 7.1 6.3 4.7
1988 28 DEN QB 15 15 8-7-0 274 496 55.2 3309 17 3.4 19 3.8 86 6.7 5.3 12.1 220.6 71.4 30 237 5.8 4.5 5.7
1989* 29 DEN QB 15 15 10-5-0 223 416 53.6 3051 18 4.3 18 4.3 69 7.3 5.8 13.7 203.4 73.7 35 298 6.1 4.7 7.8
1990 30 DEN QB 16 16 5-11-0 294 502 58.6 3526 15 3.0 14 2.8 66 7.0 6.1 12.0 220.4 78.5 43 311 5.9 5.0 7.9
1991* 31 DEN QB 16 16 12-4-0 242 451 53.7 3253
Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
Let's be clear about this.
1. Elway was a great QB.
2. Elway and Denver finally won titles when they had a complete TEAM in place. Marino and Miami never won a title because they never had a complete team in place. One guy doesn't win a championship.
Re: Sammy Baugh Passes Away
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OregonDuck1989
My mistake. But in 1993 he did not "just start to figure the NFL out". His only 4,000 yard season does not qualify him as figuring the NFL out if that is your basis of qualification. In fact, in 1990 he put up 3,500 yards along with 15 touchdowns on a team that was downright awful. A career year does not mean you "just start" to figure the NFL out at all.
That was my typo on the six. Now saying it was by default is just being plain dumb. The Broncos weren't just handed the playoff games. These were good teams in the AFC...just not great teams in history in the NFC (The 49ers, the Giants with Simms, The Redskins). Saying that the entire AFC was mediocre is just flat wrong. They just weren't the NFC. The Broncos teams of the 80's were good...just not THAT good.
1.) Please explain to Pat Bowlen then your theory. Because Dan Reeves was fired for the very reason of Elway's complaining. Elway and Reeves are not friends because of their relationship due to Reeves' offensive system. The West Coast offense of Shanahan took pressure off Elway and gave the ball to Davis.
2.) No one here is saying Montana and Marino were not superior.
3.) Failed year after year in the first ten years?
He broke 3,000 yards six times in his first ten years. Apart from his dismal ten game rookie record (which is understandable). His second season (which showed VAST improvement) was decent. The next seven years he was one of the better quarterbacks in the NFL. Failed is a huge exaggeration and it seems to me as if you have something against John Elway at this point.
Re. Elway, Part 2
I had forgotten about this thread until today, when while watching the playoff games on TV I remembered it. My apologies for taking this long for my reply, as I was not available for several days around Christmas. Nonetheless....
1) Elway did, in fact, improve dramatically in 1993. I dont know why you refuse to acknowledge this fact, but it is clearly true. Again, this was 2 years BEFORE Shanahan arrived, so it is hardly due to anything Mike did.
Did I say anything about his "only 4000 yard season"? Nope. It was, of course, but that is hardly the basis for my comment on his breakout year, and I find it puzzling that you would focus on that one stat, and ignore others, like...
A) In his first 10 years, Elway threw 158 TD passes and 157 interceptions. Starting in 1993, over his final 6 seasons his ratio was 142/69. Beginning in 1993, when it was 25 TD and 10 Int. That was his best, far and away, up to 1993. In seasonal notation; 1983-1992 16 TD/16 Int, 1993-1998 24 TD/12 Int. Dramatic improvement.
B) In 1993 his completion % was 63.2, by far his best at that time. In fact, that remained his career high.
C) His interception % in 1993 was 1.8%, by far his best at that time. Again, that remained his career best.
D) His passer rating in 1993 was 92.8, by far, his best at that time. He did actually exceed that in his final year (93.0).
To sum it up, 1993 was Elways best year. Not only up to that point, but I would say, of his career. Certainly it was the year that he showed dramatic improvement.
2) Compared to the NFC, the AFC in the mid to late 80's was mediocre. You may not like that word, but its how I see it. In a 6 year stretch, ending with the SB in 1990, the NFC won 6 straight SB's, with only one close game (SF over Cin 20-16). In the other 5 games, the margin of the NFC win was nearly 30 points a game. Elway's Broncos lost 3 of those games. And the '87 Redskins were hardly an elite team, and they smashed Denver to the tune of 42-10.
3) I dont normally speak to Bowlen, so it is likely I wont have an opportunity to explain my "theory" to him. I dont know if Reeves and Elway speak, or have lunch together, or exchange Christmas cards. I dont think that is the least bit relevant. You allege that Reeves was a "jerk" to Elway. I have a vivid memory of Elway having a reputation of being a whiner and complainer. Is it possible that it was Elway who was the jerk? You mention his constant complaining. Either way, its irrelevant.
4) Passing for 3K yards is nothing special. In 2008, something like 18 QB's threw for that much. Elway was a good QB, and stayed relatively healthy. He should have thrown for 3000 yards, or more, in every year. Many suggest he is one of the best, if not THE best ever, and the best we can do is say that he threw for 3000 yards? When others routinely passed for MUCH more than that? Ok.
5) You suggest that I have something against Elway. That also puzzles me. Because I dont gush on and on about how brilliant he was? What do you think he ever did to me? Refused to sign an autograph? Dated and jilted my sister? Crept over to my house at night and tore open my trash bags? Ummm, no. I have nothing against poor John.
On the other hand, it is quite obvious that you are a fan, and a big one. Thats cool. You have certainly proven one of my original points. You overlook his failings, and blame others (the coach, for example) for those failings. I figured out a long time ago.....I can't argue with a fan. No fan of any sports figure is going to accept that his hero wasn't the best ever. So, on that note.....
I will say again that Elway had special talents. I watched him play many, many times. I saw him make throws that I have never seen equaled. He could make such incredible plays that you would wonder if your eyes were deceiving you. Then, just minutes later, he would be stumbling around the field like a blind man. Thats the point....Elway was always (or mostly) very, very inconsistent. Thats why, to me, when the best QB's ever are discussed, Elway isn't in the discussion. Not to me anyway.
