Ranking the top pitchers since the 1940's

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sport...d=1&listId=211

I ranked mine quickly, without putting much research/thought into it:

1) Clemens
2) Maddux
3) Seaver
4) Johnson
5) Spahn
6) Pedro
7) Koufax
8) Carlton
9) Wynn
10) Glavine
11) Perry
12) Niekro
13) Ryan
14) Sutton

The results of the poll are baffling. They overrate Koufax in my opinion (having him #2), and ridiculously, insanely overrate Nolan Ryan, which is nothing new, placing him #3.

I also find it interesting that Clemens is ranked 7th behind Steve Carlton at 6th despite nearly tripling the amount of first place votes Carlton got. To me, that says that there's simply two groups where it comes to ranking Clemens - the people that look objectively at the performance record and rank him based on that and the people that let the steroid issue and their personal opinion of the guy cloud their judgment and rank him incredibly low.

They also leave out a lot of other good options (Bob Gibson, Jim Palmer, Bert Blyleven, Robin Roberts, Mussina, Bob Feller possibly depending on the cutoff, Whitey Ford...)

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

To me, that says that there's simply two groups where it comes to ranking Clemens - the people that look objectively at the performance record and rank him based on that and the people that let the steroid issue and their personal opinion of the guy cloud their judgment and rank him incredibly low.

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GM that is A SUBJECTIVE view you are making.


Objectivity,by definition is "the fact or quality of being accurate, unbiased, and independent of individual perceptions".

As it is clear that Clemens' total stats are not NECESSARILY 100% untainted then it leads to a divergence of opinions.You,subjectively,believe one thing & subjectively claim that others are being NON objective.But isn't all rankings of non linear analysis in itself a subjective test rather than an objective analysis ?
;)

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

Objectivity,by definition is "the fact or quality of being accurate, unbiased, and independent of individual perceptions".

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Like I said, if you look objectively at the performance record, there is no way Roger Clemens isn't in at least the top 5, steroids or not.

1.Roger Clemens
2.Greg Maddux
3.Tom Seaver
4.Randy Johnson
5.Warren Spahn
6.Steve Carlton
7.Sandy Koufax
8.Gaylord Perry
9.Tom Glavine
10.Pedro Martinez
11.Nolan Ryan
12.Don Sutton
13.Phil Niekro
14.Early Wynn

My list is:


1. Maddux
2. Clemens
3. Seaver
4. Spahn
5. Johnson
6. Pedro
7. Koufax
8. Carlton
9. Perry
10. Ryan
11. Neikro
12. Glavine
13. Wynn
14. Sutton

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Like I said, if you look objectively at the performance record, there is no way Roger Clemens isn't in at least the top 5, steroids or not.

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Wrong HGM because IF (& that is an if) Clemens' record is based on usage of steroids then his accomplishments must be taken in light of those actions.

That is to say his performance is not on par with other players' & thus ipso facto his record CANNOT be looked at objectively but SUBJECTIVELY.

Objectivity is de primo based on comparing 2 exact similar results OBTAINED in same set of circumstances.Example 2 runners running 100m......... in this case you are trying to compare the achievements (possibly) of a 100m runner & a 200m runner & thus cannot obtain an objective but a subjective result.

RSR... you put Glavin in top 10 all time??? I wouldnt put him close to there... i nearly dont put him in the hall. Of course I do want him in but I think smolts was better by far

The exclusion of Bob Gibson makes that list a joke.

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

That is to say his performance is not on par with other players' & thus ipso facto his record CANNOT be looked at objectively but SUBJECTIVELY.

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This is only true if you believe that Clemens has been taking steroids his entire career. And anybody who believes that is not being objective.

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Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet

RSR... you put Glavin in top 10 all time??? I wouldnt put him close to there... i nearly dont put him in the hall. Of course I do want him in but I think smolts was better by far

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RSR has Glavine listed 12th, and this isn't an all-time list.

The overall results from the fans:

1. Maddux
2. Koufax
3. Ryan
4. Seaver
5. Spahn
6. Carlton
7. Clemens
8. Johnson
9. Martinez
10. Glavine
11. Perry
12. Sutton
13. Neikro
14. Wynn



Overall, that is pretty bad in my opinion

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Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet

RSR... you put Glavin in top 10 all time??? I wouldnt put him close to there... i nearly dont put him in the hall. Of course I do want him in but I think smolts was better by far

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Houston has him listed 10th

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

This is only true if you believe that Clemens has been taking steroids his entire career. And anybody who believes that is not being objective.

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Again mistaken HGM - I am sorry to say - if Clemens has ANY result,even if it is 1 inning affected by his usage of an illicit substance then automatically it is no longer an objective comparison but de facto becomes a subjective one.

i cant put glavine ahead of ryan for 1. hwat I need to do is sit down and go thru the list myself.

Ryan is ahead of glavine. if he had been on decent teams he would have 350+ wins. (yes i know wins are not he end all but come on the guy does have the most strikeout in the history of the sport by a LOT!!! Not only that but 7 no hitters.

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Houston has him listed 10th

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So ? HGM (no disrespect GM) is not GOD lol :D Why DO YOU list him in your analysis ?

and are we leaving out relievers? because eck and mariano need considerations... not sure if id put them there but I think they deserve to be thought of...

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

Again mistaken HGM - I am sorry to say - if Clemens has ANY result,even if it is 1 inning affected by his usage of an illicit substance then automatically it is no longer an objective comparison but de facto becomes a subjective one.

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There is no way Clemens is not in the top 5 of these pitchers unless you incorporate personal bias into your rankings. It's that simple. If you want to continue arguing semantics and the definition of "objective", go right ahead, but I'm not going to participate. If you want to make an argument that Clemens is not in the top 5 of this list, go right ahead, but you're going to have some trouble doing that.

I think i really do like houstons lists... i just think Ryan is undervalued (tho he is NOT #3) and glavine would make the top 20 but not hte top 10

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

So ? HGM (no disrespect GM) is not GOD lol :D Why DO YOU list him in your analysis ?

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No, Poet mixed up my list with HGM's. So I was telling him it was Houston who ranked Glavine 10th, not me. Personally, I feel Bob Gibson and Juan Marichal should be on that list, even if not on top.

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

So ? HGM (no disrespect GM) is not GOD lol :D Why DO YOU list him in your analysis ?

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What? TheNamelessPoet asked RSR why he has Glavine in the top 10, and RSR simply pointed out that he doesn't, but I do.

1. Seaver
2. Maddux
3. Ryan
4. Carlton
5. Koufax
6. Spahn
7. Sutton
8. Glavine
9. Perry
10. Martinez
11. Johnson
12. Wynn
13. Niekro
14. Clemens

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

1. Seaver
2. Maddux
3. Ryan
4. Carlton
5. Koufax
6. Spahn
7. Sutton
8. Glavine
9. Perry
10. Martinez
11. Johnson
12. Wynn
13. Niekro
14. Clemens

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And that's my point. Someone famous for basing evaluation on personal bias lists Clemens 14th.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

1. Seaver
2. Maddux
3. Ryan
4. Carlton
5. Koufax
6. Spahn
7. Sutton
8. Glavine
9. Perry
10. Martinez
11. Johnson
12. Wynn
13. Niekro
14. Clemens

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Thats a little backwards Dude...

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

And that's my point. Someone famous for basing evaluation on personal bias lists Clemens 14th.

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Honestly, what did you expect? :rolleyes::p

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

And that's my point. Someone famous for basing evaluation on personal bias lists Clemens 14th.

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It's not bias. The dude did steroids. IMO that makes him and the other roiders the worst players in baseball history

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Thats a little backwards Dude...

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You saying Seaver should be 14th?

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

You saying Seaver should be 14th?

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No, but in general. Ryan should be lower, Clemens a LOT higher, etc.

here is MY Subjective 10

1 Pedro Martinez
2 Sandy Koufax
3 Nolan Ryan
4 Greg Maddux
5 Bob Gibson
6 Roger 'the Dodger' Clemens
7 Tom Seaver
8 Jim Palmer
9 Bruce Sutter
10 Mariano Rivera

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

It's not bias. The dude did steroids. IMO that makes him and the other roiders the worst players in baseball history

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Only somebody with an extreme bias against steroids would make such a statement. It's bias. There's no denying it.

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Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet

i cant put glavine ahead of ryan for 1. hwat I need to do is sit down and go thru the list myself.

Ryan is ahead of glavine. if he had been on decent teams he would have 350+ wins. (yes i know wins are not he end all but come on the guy does have the most strikeout in the history of the sport by a LOT!!! Not only that but 7 no hitters.

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And walks...and wild pitchs....

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Only somebody with an extreme bias against steroids would make such a statement. It's bias. There's no denying it.

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Steroids are illegal. I don't have a bias against them. They're...illegal. They make you perform better then you physically could. And did I mention they're illegal?

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

here is MY Subjective 10

1 Pedro Martinez
2 Sandy Koufax
3 Nolan Ryan
4 Greg Maddux
5 Bob Gibson
6 Roger 'the Dodger' Clemens
7 Tom Seaver
8 Jim Palmer
9 Bruce Sutter
10 Mariano Rivera

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Sutter? He should not be any where near Mariano, why is Seaver so low, and why is Maddux not Numerò Uno?

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Steroids are illegal. I don't have a bias against them. They're...illegal. They make you perform better then you physically could. And did I mention they're illegal?

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Some of them were not illegal when Clemens allegedly used them, however....

HGM, your list is awful so your not one to talk

1) Clemens- STEROIDS *
2) Maddux- *
3) Seaver
4) Johnson- * He's not that amazing
5) Spahn
6) Pedro- * Laughable...
7) Koufax
8) Carlton
9) Wynn -LOL
10) Glavine- *
11) Perry
12) Niekro- Should be 13th
13) Ryan- Are you slow or something?
14) Sutton-



*= Can you say "Modern Bias"?

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Steroids are illegal. I don't have a bias against them. They're...illegal. They make you perform better then you physically could. And did I mention they're illegal?

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Again, tell me how using them than somehow makes you the worst player to ever play the game. :rolleyes:

By all current evidence, the EARLIEST "starting point" of steroid use by Clemens was the mid/late-1990's. He was already an all-time great pitcher without steroids. Having used steroids doesn't then make him a terrible player. In terms of on-field performance, he's one of the top 5 pitchers of all-time, let alone the last half-century. The ONLY way to deny that is to incorporate a huge amount of personal bias into your evaluation, which you're no stranger of.

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Originally Posted by RedSoxRockies

Sutter? He should not be any where near Mariano, why is Seaver so low, and why is Maddux not Numerò Uno?

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"subjective" ranking. Basically, he ranked his favorite players.

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Some of them were not illegal when Clemens allegedly used them, however....

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They still enhanced his performance tho... so he really didn't win all those games and strike out all those batters, the drugs did

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

4) Johnson- * He's not that amazing

6) Pedro- * Laughable...

13) Ryan- Are you slow or something?

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You're insane.

I also said that I didn't put much time into the ranking. I will post a revised ranking when I get home.

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*= Can you say "Modern Bias"?

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Uh, what? The pitchers to be ranked are mostly modern pitchers.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Again, tell me how using them than somehow makes you the worst player to ever play the game. :rolleyes:

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Because Clemens wouldn't be half as good without the steroids

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

They still enhanced his performance tho... so he really didn't win all those games and strike out all those batters, the drugs did

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You are hopeless

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Uh, what? The pitchers to be ranked are mostly modern pitchers.

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But all the 90s/2000s people are right at the top... pathetic