Ranking the top pitchers since the 1940's

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

That's not the message I'm intending to send across though.

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It sure seems like it.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

That's not the message I'm intending to send across though.

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These are your exact words:

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

IMO Bonds is one of the worst hitters of all time, because he did steroids (and who knows how long he's been doing them)... also at the bottom are players like Palmeiro and McGwire...

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That is the exact same thing as saying "I know he did steroids so that means that he's the worst player ever." So, if that's not the message you're intending to send across, you should probably change the message, because that's EXACTLY what you're sending across.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

These are your exact words:



That is the exact same thing as saying "I know he did steroids so that means that he's the worst player ever." So, if that's not the message you're intending to send across, you should probably change the message, because that's EXACTLY what you're sending across.

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Dude, it was just a slip of the tongue. Stop being so dramatic about everything

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Dude, it was just a slip of the tongue. Stop being so dramatic about everything

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You have said it before.. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

You have said it before.. :rolleyes:

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It was a recurring slip of the tongue

Also from this thread:

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

It's not bias. The dude did steroids. IMO that makes him and the other roiders the worst players in baseball history

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

It was a recurring slip of the tongue

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LOL dude, why do you even bother? You're just making yourself sound even more ridiculous....

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

LOL dude, why do you even bother? You're just making yourself sound even more ridiculous....

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Let me state my opinion.

Players who have done steroids should just simply not be included in the discussion of the best players ever. We don't know when they did them and for how long, so to be sure we should just put them aside.

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Let me state my opinion.

Players who have done steroids should just simply not be included in the discussion of the best players ever. We don't know when they did them and for how long, so to be sure we should just put them aside.

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But we don't KNOW for sure what players have done steroids, except for those that have tested positive, which of HOF-level players is just Rafael Palmeiro. There are TONS AND TONS of players that have never been caught and never even been suspected that undoubtedly did steroids at some point during their careers. How do you decide who did and didn't do steroids?

Instead of throwing them out of the discussion completely, the best course of action is what kenny1234 said:

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My opinion is that we judge players based on what we can see - because I don't see any other way of assessing players from this era. I judge the steroid era in the same way I would judge the deadball era or the low offense era of the 60's - just compare players to their contemporaries.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

But we don't KNOW for sure what players have done steroids, except for those that have tested positive, which of HOF-level players is just Rafael Palmeiro. There are TONS AND TONS of players that have never been caught and never even been suspected that undoubtedly did steroids at some point during their careers. How do you decide who did and didn't do steroids?

Instead of throwing them out of the discussion completely, the best course of action is what kenny1234 said:

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And of course, McGwire. A reporter found Andro in his locker.

And I know what you're going to say now, so I might as well respond to that too:

Legal or not back then, Andro was, is, and always will be a STEROID

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

And of course, McGwire. A reporter found Andro in his locker.

And I know what you're going to say now, so I might as well respond to that too:

Legal or not back then, Andro was, is, and always will be a STEROID

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Ever hear of a player getting a cortisone shot?

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Ever hear of a player getting a cortisone shot?

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Yes. I believe that is a non performance-enhancing steroid (like the stuff that's in inhalers)

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Yes. I believe that is a non performance-enhancing steroid (like the stuff that's in inhalers)

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Without it, the player likely wouldn't be able to play. Is that not "performance-enhancing"? And ZOMG ITS A STEROID!!!!!!!!!!! BAD!!!!

And at any rate, why do you believe in penalizing players for using a perfectly legal substance that they are allowed to use? Weight-lifting is "performance-enhancing." Protein shakes are "performance-enhancing." Caffeine is "performance-enhancing." I highly doubt you'd object to players lifting weights, drinking protein shakes, or having coffee.

This whole "debate" has become so boring...

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

This whole "debate" has become so boring...

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agree the debate is old., people need to understand that not just the superstars did steriods, it was wide spread.