Good point, good point....Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet
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Good point, good point....Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet
Steroids were the reason he made the big leagues at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
And you know that how?
Anyway back to topic on hand here
would you guys put eckersly anywhere close to the top 10?
No, he did not use them until the late 90's. You can tell by looking at his baseball cards. And Poet, no, Eck may be in the top 50ish, but not the top ten.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet
He was talking about Alex Sanchez with that post, but EVEN11323's question remains. How does he know?Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
Yea, Metsguy, did you interview him?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Because these guys can't actually play baseball. They were given fake skills from these PEDs
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Barry Bonds was an all-time great before he started using steroids.
You ridiculously exaggerate the effects of PEDs. They do not give you baseball skills.
Barry Bonds may have been using steroids his whole career, we can't prove how long he used them.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
You can't even prove that he DID use them at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
But, it's quite clear to anybody not blinded by personal bias and blind hatred of PEDs that he wasn't using them for his entire career.
When the storm its your front door, with a roar you can't ignore, but theres no place to hide mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Dude, stop avoiding reality, you can not escape it and it WILL hit you hard.
Houston, I would like to agree with you - but we have no way of knowing when or if a player used steroids or other performance enhancing drugs. And I have no personal bias one way or the other. Also, we have no good measure of how PEDs affect performance. If we knew when players used them - then we could measure the differential effects (though even then there are major statistical complications) - but as it stands, there is simply no way of knowing what any player would have done if things were different.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
My opinion is that we judge players based on what we can see - because I don't see any other way of assessing players from this era. I judge the steroid era in the same way I would judge the deadball era or the low offense era of the 60's - just compare players to their contemporaries. But I can see someone's point if they say that Clemens, Bonds, McGwire and others are simply excluded from the discussion of all-time great baseball players because we do not know how their career would have panned out without drugs.
So, that means we should assume the worst - that he used his entire career?Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny1234
Yes, 100% agreed.Quote:
And I have no personal bias one way or the other. Also, we have no good measure of how PEDs affect performance. If we knew when players used them - then we could measure the differential effects (though even then there are major statistical complications) - but as it stands, there is simply no way of knowing what any player would have done if things were different.
My opinion is that we judge players based on what we can see - because I don't see any other way of assessing players from this era. I judge the steroid era in the same way I would judge the deadball era or the low offense era of the 60's - just compare players to their contemporaries.
I can't see that point, really. "We don't know, so, let's ignore them completely"? No thanks. But, at any rate, that position is NOT what metsguy is advocating. Metsguy is saying something entirely different, and while that position is somewhat defensible, metsguy's position...isn't. At all.Quote:
But I can see someone's point if they say that Clemens, Bonds, McGwire and others are simply excluded from the discussion of all-time great baseball players because we do not know how their career would have panned out without drugs.
He's including them in the discussion, but placing them below EVERY OTHER PLAYER, which is just ridiculous. He's not saying, "I don't know, so I'm going to ignore them." He's saying, "I know he did steroids so that means that he's the worst player ever."
That's not the message I'm intending to send across though.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM