Ranking the top pitchers since the 1940's

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sport...d=1&listId=211

I ranked mine quickly, without putting much research/thought into it:

1) Clemens
2) Maddux
3) Seaver
4) Johnson
5) Spahn
6) Pedro
7) Koufax
8) Carlton
9) Wynn
10) Glavine
11) Perry
12) Niekro
13) Ryan
14) Sutton

The results of the poll are baffling. They overrate Koufax in my opinion (having him #2), and ridiculously, insanely overrate Nolan Ryan, which is nothing new, placing him #3.

I also find it interesting that Clemens is ranked 7th behind Steve Carlton at 6th despite nearly tripling the amount of first place votes Carlton got. To me, that says that there's simply two groups where it comes to ranking Clemens - the people that look objectively at the performance record and rank him based on that and the people that let the steroid issue and their personal opinion of the guy cloud their judgment and rank him incredibly low.

They also leave out a lot of other good options (Bob Gibson, Jim Palmer, Bert Blyleven, Robin Roberts, Mussina, Bob Feller possibly depending on the cutoff, Whitey Ford...)

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

To me, that says that there's simply two groups where it comes to ranking Clemens - the people that look objectively at the performance record and rank him based on that and the people that let the steroid issue and their personal opinion of the guy cloud their judgment and rank him incredibly low.

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GM that is A SUBJECTIVE view you are making.


Objectivity,by definition is "the fact or quality of being accurate, unbiased, and independent of individual perceptions".

As it is clear that Clemens' total stats are not NECESSARILY 100% untainted then it leads to a divergence of opinions.You,subjectively,believe one thing & subjectively claim that others are being NON objective.But isn't all rankings of non linear analysis in itself a subjective test rather than an objective analysis ?
;)

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

Objectivity,by definition is "the fact or quality of being accurate, unbiased, and independent of individual perceptions".

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Like I said, if you look objectively at the performance record, there is no way Roger Clemens isn't in at least the top 5, steroids or not.

1.Roger Clemens
2.Greg Maddux
3.Tom Seaver
4.Randy Johnson
5.Warren Spahn
6.Steve Carlton
7.Sandy Koufax
8.Gaylord Perry
9.Tom Glavine
10.Pedro Martinez
11.Nolan Ryan
12.Don Sutton
13.Phil Niekro
14.Early Wynn

My list is:


1. Maddux
2. Clemens
3. Seaver
4. Spahn
5. Johnson
6. Pedro
7. Koufax
8. Carlton
9. Perry
10. Ryan
11. Neikro
12. Glavine
13. Wynn
14. Sutton

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Like I said, if you look objectively at the performance record, there is no way Roger Clemens isn't in at least the top 5, steroids or not.

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Wrong HGM because IF (& that is an if) Clemens' record is based on usage of steroids then his accomplishments must be taken in light of those actions.

That is to say his performance is not on par with other players' & thus ipso facto his record CANNOT be looked at objectively but SUBJECTIVELY.

Objectivity is de primo based on comparing 2 exact similar results OBTAINED in same set of circumstances.Example 2 runners running 100m......... in this case you are trying to compare the achievements (possibly) of a 100m runner & a 200m runner & thus cannot obtain an objective but a subjective result.

RSR... you put Glavin in top 10 all time??? I wouldnt put him close to there... i nearly dont put him in the hall. Of course I do want him in but I think smolts was better by far

The exclusion of Bob Gibson makes that list a joke.

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

That is to say his performance is not on par with other players' & thus ipso facto his record CANNOT be looked at objectively but SUBJECTIVELY.

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This is only true if you believe that Clemens has been taking steroids his entire career. And anybody who believes that is not being objective.

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Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet

RSR... you put Glavin in top 10 all time??? I wouldnt put him close to there... i nearly dont put him in the hall. Of course I do want him in but I think smolts was better by far

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RSR has Glavine listed 12th, and this isn't an all-time list.

The overall results from the fans:

1. Maddux
2. Koufax
3. Ryan
4. Seaver
5. Spahn
6. Carlton
7. Clemens
8. Johnson
9. Martinez
10. Glavine
11. Perry
12. Sutton
13. Neikro
14. Wynn



Overall, that is pretty bad in my opinion

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Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet

RSR... you put Glavin in top 10 all time??? I wouldnt put him close to there... i nearly dont put him in the hall. Of course I do want him in but I think smolts was better by far

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Houston has him listed 10th

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

This is only true if you believe that Clemens has been taking steroids his entire career. And anybody who believes that is not being objective.

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Again mistaken HGM - I am sorry to say - if Clemens has ANY result,even if it is 1 inning affected by his usage of an illicit substance then automatically it is no longer an objective comparison but de facto becomes a subjective one.

i cant put glavine ahead of ryan for 1. hwat I need to do is sit down and go thru the list myself.

Ryan is ahead of glavine. if he had been on decent teams he would have 350+ wins. (yes i know wins are not he end all but come on the guy does have the most strikeout in the history of the sport by a LOT!!! Not only that but 7 no hitters.

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Houston has him listed 10th

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So ? HGM (no disrespect GM) is not GOD lol :D Why DO YOU list him in your analysis ?