http://bleacherreport.com/articles/8...ps-of-all-time
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I thought this was an interesting knock on Vizquel:
"10. Omar Vizquel
Vizquel is the second greatest defensive shortstop behind the great Ozzie Smith. In his 20-year career with the Seattle Mariners, Cleveland Indians, and San Francisco Giants, he has won eleven gold glove awards and was selected to the three All Star teams. He has a .273 career average along with 77 home runs, 892 RBI's, 1361 runs scored, 2657 base hits and 385 stolen bases. However, he could never win a championship, losing in 1995 and 1997 with the Cleveland Indians. "
Alex Rodriguez is not a shortstop and he hasn't been for 5 years!!
That type of "knock" is always ridiculous.
Bill James Top 10, from ~2001:
1) Honus Wagner
2) Arky Vaughan
3) Cal Ripken
4) Robin Yount
5) Ernie Banks
6) Barry Larkin
7) Ozzie Smith
8) Joe Cronin
9) Alan Trammell
10) Pee Wee Reese
The Hall of Merit ranking, with Negro Leaguers removed (doesn't include active players):
1) Honus Wagner
2) Cal Ripken
3) Arky Vaughan
4) George Davis
5) Bill Dahlen
6) Robin Yount
7) Luke Appling
8) George Wright
9) Joe Cronin
10) Ernie Banks
The list in your link is good, but I don't think Vizquel comes close to the top 10. There's no way to argue that Vizquel was better than the likes of Dahlen, Davis, Wright, Cronin, Appling, Yount, etc. I also think it undervalues Vaughan.
But he was for 1,272 games, which is more than Ernie Banks played at short.Quote:
Originally Posted by eggson27
That doesn't mean that ALL of this countsQuote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Only what he achieved as a SSQuote:
ARod is likely to end up as the greatest player of all time. So far in his 15-year career for the Seattle Mariners, Texas Rangers, and New York Yankees, he has a .306 average, 553 home runs, 1606 RBI's, 1605 runs scored, 2404 base hits and 283 stolen bases and he still is on contract for NINE MORE seasons. He has been selected to the All Star team 12 times, starting at shortstop in four of them.
He has also won nine Silver Slugger Awards throughout the 90's and 2000's. He has also won five home run titles, two RBI titles and five runs titles. He also was an above average defensive player as he won back-to-back Gold Gloves in the early 2000's and three MVP awards. He has had a 40-40 season and eight 40-plus home runs seasons along with two 50-plus homer seasons
neither list has Jeter, I am mildly surprised...Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I don't believe Larkin is one of the ten best either, good but not top 10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wassit3
Not surprising Jeter came up, horrible defense but hey he's a Yank so throw him in there.
yes but his hitting is good for a ss and he is the popular "it" boy of the media...Quote:
Originally Posted by bucher34
I would say Jeter is a great Yankee more than a great Shortstop.
agreed, if he gets 3000 hits tho he wil be a HOF and therefore have to be considered among the greats when discussing great ss...Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Quote:The first list is from 2001 - Jeter hadn't played enough. The second list explicitly excludes active players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wassit3
Larkin was pretty darn good in his day though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wassit3
Are we talking all-around or just offensive?
Honestly... and this is from a Jeter HATER... he is a HOFer NOW
I wouldn't put him top 10 my any means but... he has been a very good hitter in a position that is not know for hitting. will have 250 HR and 250 Steals which is not to shabby for a SS. Also I guarentee they take into acount leadership... and how many other guys have led their teams like he has.Code:Year Ag Tm Lg G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG *OPS+ TB SH SF IBB HBP GDP
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
1995 21 NYY AL 15 48 5 12 4 1 0 7 0 0 3 11 .250 .294 .375 74 18 0 0 0 0 0
1996 22 NYY AL 157 582 104 183 25 6 10 78 14 7 48 102 .314 .370 .430 101 250 6 9 1 9 13 RoY-1
1997 23 NYY AL 159 654 116 190 31 7 10 70 23 12 74 125 .291 .370 .405 103 265 8 2 0 10 14 MVP-24
1998 24 NYY AL 149 626 127 203 25 8 19 84 30 6 57 119 .324 .384 .481 127 301 3 3 1 5 13 MVP-3,AS
1999 25 NYY AL 158 627 134 219 37 9 24 102 19 8 91 116 .349 .438 .552 153 346 3 6 5 12 12 MVP-6,AS
2000 26 NYY AL 148 593 119 201 31 4 15 73 22 4 68 99 .339 .416 .481 128 285 3 3 4 12 14 MVP-10,AS
2001 27 NYY AL 150 614 110 191 35 3 21 74 27 3 56 99 .311 .377 .480 123 295 5 1 3 10 13 MVP-10,AS
2002 28 NYY AL 157 644 124 191 26 0 18 75 32 3 73 114 .297 .373 .421 111 271 3 3 2 7 14 AS
2003 29 NYY AL 119 482 87 156 25 3 10 52 11 5 43 88 .324 .393 .450 125 217 3 1 2 13 10 MVP-21
2004 30 NYY AL 154 643 111 188 44 1 23 78 23 4 46 99 .292 .352 .471 114 303 16 2 1 14 19 MVP-13,AS
2005 31 NYY AL 159 654 122 202 25 5 19 70 14 5 77 117 .309 .389 .450 125 294 7 3 3 11 15 MVP-10
2006 32 NYY AL 154 623 118 214 39 3 14 97 34 5 69 102 .343 .417 .483 132 301 7 4 4 12 13 SS,MVP-2,AS
2007 33 NYY AL 156 639 102 206 39 4 12 73 15 8 56 100 .322 .388 .452 121 289 3 2 3 14 21 SS,MVP-11,AS
2008 34 NYY AL 150 596 88 179 25 3 11 69 11 5 52 85 .300 .363 .408 102 243 7 4 0 9 24 SS,AS
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
14 Seasons 8025 2535 57 1002 75 1376 .316 .387 .458 120 74 43 29 138 195
1985 1467 411 206 275 813 3678
+--------------+---+----+----+----+---+--+---+----+---+--+---+---+-----+-----+-----+----+----+---+---+---+---+---+
162 Game Avg 655 120 207 34 5 17 82 22 6 66 112 .316 .387 .458 120 300 6 4 2 11 16
Career High 159 654 134 219 44 9 24 102 34 12 91 125 .349 .438 .552 153 346 16 9 5 14 24
also not many people can average 200 hits for 14 years .38 OBP is also very good
He's great offensively, but he's not a top 10 if we are talking about all-around. There is no doubt in my mind that he will be a first ballot, but his defense is and always was below average.
I wouldn't call myself a Jeter hater, but I do think that he's over-rated. Still, I agree that if he were to retire right now for some reason, he'd still merit induction to the Hall based on what he's already done.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet
Never said that.Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
I would say it does depend on exactly how you're ranking them, but it's a semantics issue.Quote:
Only what he achieved as a SS
He's a great shortstop.Quote:
Originally Posted by ragecage
He is and should be a HOFer even if he retires today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wassit3
Interesting that 4 or 5 of these 'best SS of all time' are MODERN players .... 1990s or 2000s. That's enough to make the list suspicious in my eyes.
Wagner behind A-Rod?
Wagner would of been a beast of a home run hitter in this era.
I also think many of the early shortstops in the turn of the century, get discounted cause of the perceived lack of great defense. I would love to have seen Ozzie Smith or Omar Vizquel play with the gloves they played with back then.
Oh I am not going to open up THAT can of worms :), I will say this tho, in my opinion a HOFer is great by definitionQuote:
Originally Posted by bucher34
I totally agree with both parts of your statement even tho, in another thread where we were discussing how good any hitter from that era would or would not be today, I think Wagner might not be quiet as good overall as he was in his day vs. todays players I do think hewould probably still be pretty dang good and a power hitter...Quote:
Originally Posted by reflections
Bill Dahlen is victim of this. Great defensive shortstop around the turn-of-the-century PLUS had a solid bat. He should be in the Hall and is one of the best shortstops to ever play, but he's not, and is ALWAYS overlooked.Quote:
Originally Posted by reflections
I like Bill James list better then the Hall of Merits, as I feel Larkin is a bordeline hall of famer potentially, and one of the better SS to play.
I think it's more interesting that they neglected to mention he's played more games at short than anybody in the history of the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wassit3
Jeter belongs in the top 10 but I take Cal over A-Rod
wow
Larkin hasn't yet been inducted to the Hall of Merit because he hasn't been retired long enough. He'll be on their ballot, AND will definitely get in next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by cartman00000001
yep, you read that correctly. Great offense, great defense, great teammate, and something A-Rod will never have....clutch capability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wassit3
Oh please.Quote:
Originally Posted by cartman00000001
Cal Ripken, overall: .276/.340/.447
A-Rod, overall: .306/.389/.578
Ripken, 2 outs, RISP: .247/.366/.408
A-Rod, 2 outs, RISP: .274/.403/.486
Ripken, Close & Late: .282/.353/.443
A-Rod, Close & Late: .279/.375/.530
Ripken, High Leverage: .279/.352/.444
A-Rod, High Leverage: .305/.393/.582
All of these splits have large sample sizes, and whaddya know, each player bats basically the same as he does overall. The only "clutch" stat that backs up your statement is playoff performance, which both players have significantly smaller sample sizes of.
yea... i gotta say... Cal over A-Rod you are NUTS!!!
Ah, ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
doesn't matter. My team, my opinion, my SS.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet
I would also love for you to come up with stats to show me how each player helps in the clubhouse. I'll come back in lets say.............1000 years when you come up with that nugget.
Fair enough. I'm not disputing your point of Cal over A-Rod (although I disagree with it), just that it's simply untrue to say that A-Rod "isn't clutch" and Ripken "is clutch." And you're free to hold that "opinion", but it's wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by cartman00000001
Uh. Right. I don't know what this has to do with the topic at hand, but okay.Quote:
I would also love for you to come up with stats to show me how each player helps in the clubhouse. I'll come back in lets say.............1000 years when you come up with that nugget.
Definitely. It's crazy considering when he retired how he was the career leader/or near the top in almost all the important batting and fielding stats, but now he is nowhere in the talk about best shortstops, except for maybe a side note.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I agree, he should be in definately. But, you have to consider how retarted most sports writers are, as Bruce Jenkins taught us.Quote:
Originally Posted by reflections
true that.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
point is 90% of statistics are correct 50% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM