JoeGordon was the only one of 20 candidates to be selected by the two Veteran's Committees to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Gordon deserves it, but it's a shame that Ron Santo once again has to wait :(.
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JoeGordon was the only one of 20 candidates to be selected by the two Veteran's Committees to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Gordon deserves it, but it's a shame that Ron Santo once again has to wait :(.
Well at least the Yankees got another player in! It's sad though more Vet's didn't make it in.
Do they release the voting results for these or not?
WTF? This dude played 11 seasons! I hope everyone who voted for this guy dies in a plane crash or something- how do they justify this nobody going in and Gil Hodges, Ron Santo, Bert Byleven staying out?
Classic Metsguy.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Just got a cool tdibit from ESPN
He was involved in the only manager for manager trade in MLB History
hahaha, that is classic MetsGuy.
'This guy? He only [random, meaningless statistic/observation that has no weight regarding induction]! I hope these guys burn to death and fall down an elevator shaft, getting impaled by spikes at the bottom!'
They really need to change the induction percentage for the veterans comitee...
There is really no legitimate argument for this guy being in the HOF though- It's just the HOF's goal of electing every Yankee ever
I sort of agree that he should not be in, but for different reasons. His OPS barely tops .800, only a few years were "great", his Slug was under .470, his OBP around .360. He was consistant though, and may have been a good fielder. Unfortunately advanced metrics would not cover someone from the 40's. I feel Santo should have gotten in instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
No matter what his stats are though, he played eleven years. That's it. And he was never at a Sandy Koufax-type level where he was so amazing during his short career that the short amount of time wouldn't matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
I totally agree with metsguy. Only 250 homers, .268 batting average? I mean come on!
Ron Santo-342 homers, .277 ba, OPS+ of 125
Bert Blyleven- 287 wins(with crappy teams) 3,701 K's
Gil Hodges- 370 homers, .273 ba as a CATCHER
Those guys all deserve to be in the Hall more than Flash Gordon.
Hodges played 1B...Quote:
Originally Posted by EP Hotties
Being a life long Dodger fan....Gil Hodges wasn't a CATCHER. He was a 1B, and damn good one. He did played a small amount of games at catcher, but only 64 games out of his 2071 games played.Quote:
Originally Posted by EP Hotties
OK, my original statements went a bit too far, but I still think this was a stupid choice.
Sorry, I'm a little mixed up today :/
Whats the point of arguing borderline hall of fame players when they let in a dump truck in a yankee uni? Whats next, Cecil Fielder cuz he hit 51 homers one season? What a mockery. I can only think Joe gave some good hand jobs to the committee.
Everyone has an opinion on these things, of course, and it all means very little. Nonetheless, I would say that Gordon has about as good a case as several others already inducted. He was better than about half of the second baseman already in the HOF, albeit with a shorter career. He did lose 2 years at his peak to WWII (1944-1945)as well. Others are already in the HOF with similarly short careers.
Gordon was also the best second baseman of his generation (with only Bobby Doerr competing for that title, I would think). Blyleven, Santo, Hodges....I dont see how any of them could make the claim that they were the best of their era (especially Blyleven).
I would think that Santo is equally (or more) deserving, but thats how it goes. Gordon isnt the worst pick for the Hall that I have ever seen.
Yes. Here.Quote:
Originally Posted by EVEN11323
Results of the 2008 Pre-1943 Players Ballot (nine votes needed for election): Gordon (10 votes, 83.3 percent), Allie Reynolds (eight, 66.7 percent), Wes Ferrell (six, 50.0 percent), Mickey Vernon (five, 41.7 percent), Deacon White (five, 41.7 percent), Bucky Walters (4, 33.3 percent), Sherry Magee (three, 25.0 percent), Bill Dahlen, Carl Mays and Vern Stephens (fewer than three).
Allie Reynolds falling one vote short of induction is ridiculous. The most deserving player on this list, in my opinion, was Bill Dahlen and he received "less than 3 votes." Then again, a 12 person voting committee is pretty silly.
Results of the 2008 Post-1942 Players Ballot (48 votes needed for election): Santo (39 votes, 60.9 percent), Jim Kaat (38, 59.4 percent), Tony Oliva (33, 51.6 percent), Gil Hodges (28, 43.8 percent), Joe Torre (19, 29.7 percent), Maury Wills (15, 23.4 percent), Luis Tiant (13, 20.3 percent), Vada Pinson (12, 18.8 percent), Al Oliver (nine, 14.1 percent), Dick Allen (seven, 10.9 percent).
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Well, for one, Bert Blyleven isn't up to the Veteran's Committee. For two, Ron Santo being out is a travesty, yes, and he's definitely more deserving than Gordon, but a different group of voters voted on the ballot with Santo. And for Hodges, Gordon did have a shorter career, but he had better offensive stats AS A SECOND BASEMEN, while Hodges was a first basemen. Hodges stats pale in comparison to Hall of Fame first basemen, while Gordon's fit perfectly in with Hall of Fame second basemen. You also have to give Gordon credit for the two seasons he missed due to serving his country. Give him those two seasons, and he looks identical, if not better, than Bobby Doerr who was inducted into the Hall 22 years ago.Quote:
- how do they justify this nobody going in and Gil Hodges, Ron Santo, Bert Byleven staying out?
The induction process, agreed. This was the first VC under the recently changed rules, but I still think it needs to be revamped. No idea how though.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
Yes, there is.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
This is ridiculously untrue. There is no "Yankee bias" in the overall HOF voting. I do think there may have been a "Yankee bias" among the 12 VC voters, considering Allie Reynolds almost got in, and there's a guy with no legitimate argument.Quote:
- It's just the HOF's goal of electing every Yankee ever
Far, far from it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampdog
What a suprise to see the Seattle native snubbed yet again! :mad:
Actually, there was a Giants bias at one point when a former player of theirs headed the VC. Many non-deserving Giants were elected that played during the 1920's. But no, there is not a Yankee biasQuote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Interesting little discussion from the Baseball Think Factory thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony Giacalone
This is a sharp insight and a key point. This group of veterans is undoubtedly aware of what the Frisch cabal did in the 1970s, because they've been constituted with fairly explicit instructions to "don't do something like that." I think they may be self-consciously erring in the opposite direction.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Treder
I never said anything about a "Giants bias." But yes, you're right, the 70's VC did have a bias to former teammates of Frankie Frisch, because Frisch headed the committee. I just made a post at the same time as yours referencing that specifically, actually. See above.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
I never said you said anything, I was speaking to metsguy. and Lol that we posted about the same thing at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Well it's pretty confusing if you quote my post, don't reply to it, but speak to somebody else without addressing them by name.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
I was supporting what you said to Metsguy.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Earle Combs
1 New York
American
Bill Dickey
8 New York
American
Joe DiMaggio
5 New York
American
Whitey Ford
16 New York
American
Lou Gehrig
4 New York
American
Lefty Gomez
11 New York
American
Joe Gordon
Probably Going in as a Yankee
Waite Hoyt
19 New York
American
Miller Huggins
- New York
American
Reggie Jackson
44 New York
American
Tony Lazzeri
6 New York
American
Mickey Mantle
7 New York
American
Joe McCarthy
- New York
American
Phil Rizzuto
10 New York
American
Red Ruffing
15 New York
American
Babe Ruth
3 New York
American
Casey Stengel
37 New York
American
Lazzeri? Rizzuto? Huggins?
YANKEE BIAS
Just because the Yankees have a lot of Hall of Famers does not mean that there is a "Yankee bias." The Yankees have had scores of good players, and are also one of the longest existing franchises.
The overwhelming majority of the people you listed deserve their induction. You listed 17 Hall of Fame Yankees. Huggins, Stengal, and McCarthy got in due to their managerial careers, all deservedly. Of the 14 players, 10 have been inducted over at the Hall of Merit. The remaining 4 players are Earle Combs, Lefty Gomez, Waite Hoyt, and Phil Rizzuto. Of those 4, Combs is the only one that doesn't really get any support in the annual HoM elections. The HoM is also based purely off player performance record. The real life HOF elections are influenced by other factors. Hoyt and Rizzuto both obviously got credit for their broadcasting careers, and both were very well-distinguished broadcasters. So, that leaves 2 players, Combs and Gomez, both of whom were very good players, just with relatively short careers.
I'm also not entirely sure where you grabbed that list from, since you're missing a few Yankees (like Yogi Berra). At any rate, you haven't proven any "bias." If there was a "Yankee bias", explain why Don Mattingly is still on the outside looking in.
So these random Internet people voting for this Hall of Merit are emotionless robots with absolutely no bias or outside opinions of any players at all?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I got that list from Baseball-Reference.com of everyone who entered the HOF with a Yankee cap on their plaque. It says Berra's cap is of a undeterminable team.Quote:
I'm also not entirely sure where you grabbed that list from, since you're missing a few Yankees (like Yogi Berra). At any rate, you haven't proven any "bias." If there was a "Yankee bias", explain why Don Mattingly is still on the outside looking in.
EXACTLY! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Yeah, because he's facing a different direction. Ha. At any rate, none of that proves there's a "Yankee bias."Quote:
I got that list from Baseball-Reference.com of everyone who entered the HOF with a Yankee cap on their plaque. It says Berra's cap is of a undeterminable team.
lol :DQuote:
Originally Posted by houstongm
Lazzeri died young, Rizzuto lost time to war, and Huggins was a manager. Lazzeri was a great 2b, compared to other 2b's one of the best. Rizzuto was a great broadcaster, and a strong performer with a great glove and good bat. I feel that if he was not a broadcaster as well he may not have gotten in, but that definately did not hurt.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
But he was elected as a player, not as a player/broadcaster. If he had won the Frick award, then he could've gotten in as a broadcaster. But he got in as a player- therefore only his statistics should be taken into consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
None of this means that the voters didn't consider his broadcasting contributions.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
But they shouldn't'veQuote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
What's your point?Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
They were allowed to vote for up to 4 each. I think I would have voted for Dahlen and Stephens, though I have some reservations about some things about Stephens that don't show up in his stats. I can see the arguments for some of the other guys. Reynolds, Walters, and Mays are the least deserving IMO (Mays for things other than his stats).Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Again, each voter could vote for up to 4. I think I'd have voted for Kaat, Hodges, Torre, and Tiant.Quote:
Results of the 2008 Post-1942 Players Ballot (48 votes needed for election): Santo (39 votes, 60.9 percent), Jim Kaat (38, 59.4 percent), Tony Oliva (33, 51.6 percent), Gil Hodges (28, 43.8 percent), Joe Torre (19, 29.7 percent), Maury Wills (15, 23.4 percent), Luis Tiant (13, 20.3 percent), Vada Pinson (12, 18.8 percent), Al Oliver (nine, 14.1 percent), Dick Allen (seven, 10.9 percent.
I would've voted Gordon, White, Dahlen, and Magee for the pre-1943 ballot, and for Santo and Torre, and maybe Allen (still undecided on him) on the post-1942 ballot.
Quote:
it's a shame that Ron Santo
My mom(she's watched the cubs since 1967) brought this up to me last night and its a shame but its probably going to take Santo dying to get him in.
him AND santo should have beel left out