Gwynn vs Suzuki

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Originally Posted by dickay

He also bats leadoff, gets on base and scores far more runs.

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Gwynn got on base more. The runs are a factor of two things, only one of which matters when it comes to evaluating the two players - Ichiro is a better baserunner, and Ichiro has had better hitters hitting behind him.

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He plays to get singles...which lowers his slugging percentage.

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And his value.

At any rate, it really comes down to exactly what the question is. Who has had the better career? Gwynn, easily. Who had the better peak? Also, Gwynn, easily. If they were both rookies of the same age and you knew what they would do, who would you take? That, I don't know for sure, though I'd still probably lean towards Gwynn. If they were both in their real rookie year, meaning the same age as their rookie year in real life, who would you take? That I think is Gwynn without question.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Gwynn got on base more. The runs are a factor of two things, only one of which matters when it comes to evaluating the two players - Ichiro is a better baserunner, and Ichiro has had better hitters hitting behind him.


And his value.

At any rate, it really comes down to exactly what the question is. Who has had the better career? Gwynn, easily. Who had the better peak? Also, Gwynn, easily. If they were both rookies of the same age and you knew what they would do, who would you take? That, I don't know for sure, though I'd still probably lean towards Gwynn. If they were both in their real rookie year, meaning the same age as their rookie year in real life, who would you take? That I think is Gwynn without question.

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You really can't gauge their careers, as much of Ichiros was overseas. Peak in the MLB, no question its Gwynn. I'll take my chances with Ichiro giving consideration of his Japan stats, his far superior defense, and baserunning ability.

Another thing to take into account is Ichiro's durability. Gwynn missed alot of playing time in many seasons. From 88-2001 he played in 150 games only once, and was under 130 in about half of those 13 seasons. In 8 MLB seasons ichiro has never had under 157 games played.

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Originally Posted by dickay

You really can't gauge their careers, as much of Ichiros was overseas. Peak in the MLB, no question its Gwynn. I'll take my chances with Ichiro giving consideration of his Japan stats, his far superior defense, and baserunning ability.

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I am talking purely MLB. When taking Japan into account, you have to give a pretty large ding to Ichiro's raw stats, as all the Japanese players have proven that the level of play is very different in the MLB than in Japan.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I am talking purely MLB. When taking Japan into account, you have to give a pretty large ding to Ichiro's raw stats, as all the Japanese players have proven that the level of play is very different in the MLB than in Japan.

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The fact he greatly dominated Japan and came over to MLB and dominated here doesn't ding him at all. Some of his top years were overseas. when reviewing their careers as a whole to answer the question in this thread, it has to be considered.

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Originally Posted by dickay

Another thing to take into account is Ichiro's durability. Gwynn missed alot of playing time in many seasons. From 88-2001 he played in 150 games only once, and was under 130 in about half of those 13 seasons. In 8 MLB seasons ichiro has never had under 157 games played.

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Yes, I understand Ichiro was more durable.

With what you just said though, you do have to note than in 1994, Gwynn played in 110 of 117 games and in 1995 he played 135 of 142.

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Originally Posted by dickay

The fact he greatly dominated Japan and came over to MLB and dominated here doesn't ding him at all. Some of his top years were overseas. when reviewing their careers as a whole to answer the question in this thread, it has to be considered.

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I don't think he's "dominated" here, but that's beside the point. What I'm saying is that you can't take the Japan stats at their raw face value. Had he been in the MLB, they'd have very, very likely been lower.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Yes, I understand Ichiro was more durable.

With what you just said though, you do have to note than in 1994, Gwynn played in 110 of 117 games and in 1995 he played 135 of 142.

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duly noted lol. His health and durability was still far less than Ichiros.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I don't think he's "dominated" here, but that's beside the point. What I'm saying is that you can't take the Japan stats at their raw face value. Had he been in the MLB, they'd have very, very likely been lower.

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I'm not saying to take them at face value, surely there's a drop off...but they wouldn't have been 'very very' lower 'likely'. I could see one saying that if Ichiro came here and struggled initially but he came here and dominated. If he hasn't dominated, I don't know what domination is. He's had over 200 hits every season!!!!

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Originally Posted by dickay

I'm not saying to take them at face value, surely there's a drop off...but they wouldn't have been 'very very' lower 'likely'. I could see one saying that if Ichiro came here and struggled initially but he came here and dominated.

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.331/.377/.430 in America. .353/.421/.522 in Japan. As with the other Japanese hitters, the one thing that took a major hit was power. Had he been in the MLB for his age 20-26 seasons, I think a .340/.390/.440ish line is a perfectly fair estimate.

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If he hasn't dominated, I don't know what domination is. He's had over 200 hits every season!!!!

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The overwhelming majority of which have been singles. He's been a very good player, extremely valuable, All-Star caliber. I wouldn't say he's DOMINATED though. He's dominated batting average, sure, but that's not "dominating" the league in an overall sense, but that's arguing semantics.

I'm really surprised Ichiro is winning this, even if it is only by one vote (right now).

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

.331/.377/.430 in America. .353/.421/.522 in Japan. As with the other Japanese hitters, the one thing that took a major hit was power. Had he been in the MLB for his age 20-26 seasons, I think a .340/.390/.440ish line is a perfectly fair estimate.


The overwhelming majority of which have been singles. He's been a very good player, extremely valuable, All-Star caliber. I wouldn't say he's DOMINATED though. He's dominated batting average, sure, but that's not "dominating" the league in an overall sense, but that's arguing semantics.

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Wow, well first off i'm not going to begin a game of guessing with a crystal ball what his stats would have been had he played in MLB at the start of his career. I'll let you and your insiders determine that.

As far as not 'dominating' I simply think you're crazy and denying it to support your position. One does not need to be a big power hitter to be dominant. Ichiro is one of the most feared players in the game. His slugging percentage has not been tons lower than Gwynns so the fact that as a leadoff hitter he's gotten alot of singles as a negative is 'absurd'. (for you ohms). He's a leadoff hitter with alot of speed, it's his game. He's had over 200 hits each of his first 8 seasons, far and away a MLB alltime record. Gwynn did that 5 times in his whole career. 5 of those 8 seasons Ichiro led all of baseball in hits. He has been top 10 in BA in 7 of 8 seasons. He's won 8 gold gloves in each of his 8 seasons. All star in each of his 8 seasons. He's won an MVP, something Gwynn never did. Over 100 runs in each season, something gwynn did twice.

I said these two were close, which says alot about Ichiro as Gwynn is an alltime great and clearly dominant player in his day. The fact Ichiro is mentioned with him should say enough that he's dominant. Saying Ichiro has not been dominant is really pretty dumb.

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Originally Posted by dickay

Wow, well first off i'm not going to begin a game of guessing with a crystal ball what his stats would have been had he played in MLB at the start of his career. I'll let you and your insiders determine that.

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Okay, I'm sick of your crap with this. I'm sorry, but cut it the hell out. I'm just making educated guesses based on the statistical record. It has nothing to do with "insiders" or whatever other sarcastic nonsense you want to throw out there. Get over it.

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One does not need to be a big power hitter to be dominant.

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Never said that.

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Ichiro is one of the most feared players in the game.

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Talk about "insider" knowledge! (By the way, I hate this argument. It has no basis in fact and there's simply no way to really know which players are "feared.")

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His slugging percentage has not been tons lower than Gwynns so the fact that as a leadoff hitter he's gotten alot of singles as a negative is 'absurd'.

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Ichiro has played in a different era than Gwynn. Gwynn's slugging percentage of .459 was 60 points above the park-adjusted league average of .399 during his career. Ichiro's .430 slugging percentage is a mere 10 points above the .420 average during his career.

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5 of those 8 seasons Ichiro led all of baseball in hits. He has been top 10 in BA in 7 of 8 seasons.

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Gwynn was in the top 10 in hits 12 times, with 7 first place finishes. Gwynn was in the top 10 in batting average 14 times with 8 batting titles (Ichiro has 2).

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He's won an MVP, something Gwynn never did.

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This means nothing if you want to seriously evaluate the performance of the two players. The voters like a STORY and Japanese star coming to America, and doing great is a great story. His own teammate, Bret Boone, was more valuable that year. Jason Giambi, Roberto Alomar, and Alex Rodriguez also had better seasons.

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Saying Ichiro has not been dominant is really pretty dumb.

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As I said, it's arguing semantics. But, I love the insults, keep them coming.

If I could get Ichiro at the same age as Gwynn was when he was a rookie, then hell yea. But Id have to seriously think about what I needed in my line-up if I got Gwynn as a youngster and Ichiro at the age he came across the ocean.

But I vote Ichiro

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Talk about "insider" knowledge! (By the way, I hate this argument. It has no basis in fact and there's simply no way to really know which players are "feared.")

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ah but of course there is.

http://www.dugoutcentral.com/blog/?p=2101

:P

[QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Okay, I'm sick of your crap with this. I'm sorry, but cut it the hell out. I'm just making educated guesses based on the statistical record. It has nothing to do with "insiders" or whatever other sarcastic nonsense you want to throw out there. Get over it.

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I don't see how your guess could be 'educated'. Its more like a shot in the dark, crystal ball prediction. Have you compared the dropoff of hitters coming from japan to MLB, found a correlation and used that to determine Ichiros?? Highly unlikely, but even if you had it still would be a very suspect as a very small sample size exists and Ichiro is different than pretty much any player whos left Japan for America. I also really don't care if you like it or not, I thought you must be speaking with insider information again because I see no other way you could come up with such info. If you don't like it, stop speaking as if you have such info.

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Never said that.

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True, but I could come up with no other rational reason why you could possibly elude that Ichiro hasn't been a dominant player.

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Talk about "insider" knowledge! (By the way, I hate this argument. It has no basis in fact and there's simply no way to really know which players are "feared.")

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It's not 'insider' info and its has basis for fact. Simply google 'baseballs most feared hitters' and you'll come up with many articles that has Ichiro mentioned. Here's an ESPN article with a managers poll and quotes. Thats enough for me. See, if I try to use actual common sense and sources, rather than a crystal ball. I can say with confidence that most who follow the game closely believe Ichiro is one of the most feared in the game. As I said, this article and many like it are confirmation enough for me.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/column...mblings/080424

http://sports.espn.go.com/chat/sport...d=1&listId=119

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Ichiro has played in a different era than Gwynn. Gwynn's slugging percentage of .459 was 60 points above the park-adjusted league average of .399 during his career. Ichiro's .430 slugging percentage is a mere 10 points above the .420 average during his career. Gwynn was in the top 10 in hits 12 times, with 7 first place finishes. Gwynn was in the top 10 in batting average 14 times with 8 batting titles (Ichiro has 2).

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I don't see your point. Ichiro has more significant stats in some areas, Gwynn has more significant stats in others. Stats are a funny thing, as they can be manipulated to support a position.

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This means nothing if you want to seriously evaluate the performance of the two players. The voters like a STORY and Japanese star coming to America, and doing great is a great story. His own teammate, Bret Boone, was more valuable that year. Jason Giambi, Roberto Alomar, and Alex Rodriguez also had better seasons.

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Agreed....it means nothing when comparing two players. I used it as a point to show he's been a dominant player. Surely to be considered for MVP votes you had to have had a dominant season.

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As I said, it's arguing semantics. But, I love the insults, keep them coming.

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If the shoe fits. Really, all I said was it was close between these two...multiple times now. Why you have to try to belittle Ichiro's accomplishments by saying he hasn't been a dominant player in his 8 seasons is baffling. (you even capitalized dominant). It's not semantics, it's rediculous. Eight seasons of 200+ hits, 8 allstar appearances, 8 gold gloves, thats more than enough. As someone who claims to be knowledgable in the game, i'm highly disappointed you have taken that stance, though am by no means surprised.