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Originally Posted by
metsguy234
OK.... lets whip out the Keltner List
I'll play along, but it's good to remember that the Keltner List is really just a good conversational tool, and not a hard and fast rule.
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2. Was he the best player on his team?
78-80 Padres: Nope. Dave Winfield was.
Okay.
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81 Padres: No, unless you don't factor in offense or baserunning at all.
Correct.
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82-84 Cardinals: Nope. Several players were better than him each year.
A case can be made for him in 1982. It's certainly close between him, Lonnie Smith, and Keith Hernandez. A case can be made for him in 1983 and 1984 as well.
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85-90 Cardinals: Will Clark. Vince Coleman. Willie McGee. Terry Pendleton.
1985, Willie McGee was good, but it can be argued that Ozzie's defense put him over him. 1986, yes, Smith was the best. Same goes for 1987, although Jack Clark demolished him offensively, Clark was a below average defender at a corner position while Smith was the greatest shortstop ever. 1988, yes, it's Smith, nobody else has an argument. 1989, Pedro Guerrero and Jose Oquendo have good arguments, Smith was close but not the best. 1990, no he wasn't.
Also, Will Clark? Clark played 51 games for St. Louis his entire career...in 2000.
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91-92 Cardinals: Yes.
Yeah, although an argument could be made for Ray Lankford in 1992.
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93 Cardinals: No. Gregg Jeffries was. Whiten and Zeile were both better then him as well.
Jeffries ever so slightly. Whiten and Zeile weren't better, on account for Zeile's statue defense at third base and Whiten being a league-average bat in the corner outfield.
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3. Was he the best player in baseball at his position? Was he the best player in the league at his position?
In the very early 80s- yes
And then came Robin Yount. And Cal Ripken.
It changed year by year, but Smith was pretty clearly the best shortstop in a handful of years.
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And then by the end of his career Rodriguez, Jeter, Garciaparra.
Their careers did not overlap. Smith's bench days overlapped a little with the very beginning of each of their careers, also which were spent on the bench, but for all technical purposes, there's no overlap.
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4. Did he have an impact on a number of pennant races?
Cardinals made the playoffs 4 times while he was there, but he, for lack of a better word, sucked in the playoffs. .236 AVG overall.
There's this little thing called his defense...
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5. Was he a good enough player that he could continue to play regularly after passing his prime?
Kind of. Last season of 100+ games was at 38. Retires at 41.
Yes.
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6. Is he the very best player in baseball history who is not in the Hall of Fame?
If he wasn't in the Hall of Fame, the answer to this question would be "No"
I wouldn't be so sure about that. An argument could be made perhaps for Blyleven...but it's not clear-cut.
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7. Are most players who have comparable career statistics in the Hall of Fame?
Out of the 10 most similar batters to Smith, 5 are in the HOF (Aparicio, Maranville, Fox, Wallace, Schoendienst- NONE OF THESE FIVE DESERVED IT THOUGH, LOOKING AT THEIR STATS), 1 will almost certainly be in the HOF once he is eligible (Vizquel)
This does not account for Smith's world-class better-than-anybody defense, which is the reason why he's in the Hall of Fame.
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8. Do the player's numbers meet Hall of Fame standards?
No.
Yes. It's called...DEFENSE.
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Absolutely putrid offense
Not at all. For a shortstop, overall, Smith was a solid hitter with some excellent years.
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and overrated fielding (Fielding Pct isnt that high)
I'll ignore for a minute the fact that fielding percentage is a terrible way to judge defense. Ozzie's was .978. League average was .966. Even using this terrible measure, Ozzie was far above league average. Nearly all advanced metrics available agree that Ozzie's defense was the best ever at shortstop. Fielding Runs Above Average is the easiest to access, and Smith's career FRAA was an astounding 254. When you compare him to replacement level, that number rockets up to 836.
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9. Is there any evidence to suggest that the player was significantly better or worse than is suggested by his statistics?
I don't believe there is.
His outstanding defense, which isn't captured in any of the basic statistics.
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10. Is he the best player at his position who is eligible for the Hall of Fame but not in?
Maury Wills has basically the same numbers, and he did it in only 13 seasons.
Please. Don't insult The Wizard. Nevermind the large gap in career value. They were basically the same offensively, correct, but you just can't seem to grasp how astounding Ozzie was defensively.
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11. How many MVP-type seasons did he have? Did he ever win an MVP award? If not, how many times was he close?
Finishes 2nd, 13th, 18th, 20th, 21st, and 22nd in MVP voting throughout his career. Never really deserved the award though, even when he came close.
He deserved it in 1987, and also deserved to place higher than he did in a handful of other seasons.
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12. How many All-Star-type seasons did he have? How many All-Star games did he play in? Did most of the other players who played in this many go to the Hall of Fame?
15 ASG's, several as flukes late in his career.
3 as "flukes". Even if you discount those, 12 is still a fantastic number.
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13. If this man were the best player on his team, would it be likely that the team could win the pennant?
NO. They'd be way short on offense!
And way ahead of the pack defensively. I'd probably agree that, on the whole, the answer is no, but there are certainly some years in his career where the answer is yes.
You're (hilariously) underrating his defense, still. That's the entire reason why he got into the Hall, and the entire reason why he deserves to be there.
