The second guy is better because he played 2B and didn't piss on his own hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
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The second guy is better because he played 2B and didn't piss on his own hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Now what if I told you that the first guy was Moises Alou and the second was Ryne Sandberg?Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
LOL. :pQuote:
Originally Posted by justanewguy
"Ridiculous! Ryan Howard was robbed! He should have won this one too!"
Somebody's humorous comment on the ESPN boards regarding Pedroia winning the AL MVP. :p
Wow, you guys have TOTALLY missed the point. I don't agree with houston regarding the different position as to why Pedey was taken over Yuke. I understand his point, but I think it's easily countered with the fact Yuke plays near flawless defense at 1st and 3rd when he had to sub for Lowell. That in itself was EXTREMELY valuable and should have pushed Yuke over Pedey except for the real reason Pedey won the MVP. And that was unquestionably;
Pedroia was as 'clutch' as they came down the 'stretch' when needed most. I haven't been able to find his September statistics but I have heard them on the radio and they are sick. At a time when they were fighting for a playoff birth, Pedroia stepped up at a much larger clip than Youk. I'd love to see the second half stats side by side...but I couldn't find them.Quote:
For the Red Sox, particularly after the departure of Ramirez, Pedroia's true value was most evident in his versatility, primarily at the plate. Late in the season, when Youkilis was temporarily sidelined, Pedroia batted cleanup for five games and went an absurd 12-for-18 (a .667 average) with four doubles, two home runs, seven RBIs, and six runs scored; he slugged 1.222 and posted an OPS of 1.889, fueling his candidacy for the MVP award and leaving little doubt that he is a big-time player with a big credentials.
In the second half of the season, Pedroia batted .345 with an OPS of .949. In August and September, when MVPs are typically won and lost, he batted a combined .353 with a .995 OPS.
This is the real reason why Pedroia edged Youk. It doesn't have to do with positions.
By Day/Month AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPSQuote:
Originally Posted by dickay
April 111 13 34 10 0 1 13 9 0 13 3 0 .306 .352 .423 .775
May 123 19 32 5 0 3 15 5 1 11 3 0 .260 .295 .374 .669
June 101 21 36 7 0 4 9 7 3 6 3 0 .356 .407 .545 .952
July 103 19 36 9 1 1 11 8 1 7 2 1 .350 .398 .485 .883
August 115 33 43 10 1 6 20 11 0 9 5 0 .374 .425 .635 1.060
September 92 12 30 12 0 2 15 10 2 5 4 0 .326 .393 .522 .915
Courtesy of ESPN. So September was good, August was far better, June was better.
Just for comparison - here are Youkilis'
By Day/Month AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB HBP SO SB CS AVG OBP SLG OPS
Last 7 Days 12 3 3 0 0 2 4 2 0 4 0 0 .250 .357 .750 1.107
April 95 15 30 7 2 2 15 12 1 12 1 1 .316 .391 .495 .886
May 100 18 30 9 0 7 20 6 1 22 2 1 .300 .343 .600 .943
June 83 14 28 6 0 4 15 8 3 21 0 0 .337 .415 .554 .969
July 90 18 27 4 2 5 20 9 3 14 0 2 .300 .371 .556 .927
August 94 16 33 10 0 6 24 10 3 23 0 0 .351 .430 .649 1.079
September 69 9 19 7 0 5 21 15 1 15 0 1 .275 .398 .594 .992
The only mark against Youkilis in August and September, as compared to Pedroia, is that he missed about a half-dozen games. And he played an easier position.
It is simple. Lots of people don't agree with your definition of value. And some don't even agree with your definition of best (but that is generally less common).Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
For example, clutch hitting has been shown to have little to no consistency from year to year. So it wouldn't make sense to compare clutch hitting to determine who was the best player. But hitting in the clutch easily fits into many people's definition of valuable. Here is one reason why some people will vote for Morneau ahead of Mauer.
Joe Mauer
Runners On 252 91 89 16 2 2 78 48 0 22 1 1 .353 .441 .456 .897
Justin Morneau
Runners On 333 90 110 27 3 16 122 54 3 47 0 1 .330 .418 .574 .992
This doesn't make Morneau a better player - but he did hit better when runners were on base.
I'm not saying that I completely agree with the argument, primarily because of positional adjustments, but it is defendable.
That is because baseball stats have no fixed "value", different stats are considered differently important thats what VORP, WARP and Win shares all use differenct metrics.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
You are talking relative value (which you advocate by adjusting for position). That is why MVP is always such a muddled debate.
That's not why I think he won over Youkilis. That's why I have him over Youkilis. He won because not only is he good, but he's "gritty", and "hardnosed", and "scrappy", and yeah, there's also the timing of his hot streaks coinciding with Manny/Ortiz ineffectiveness/departure.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Pedroia, Sept.: .326/.393/.522Quote:
Pedroia was as 'clutch' as they came down the 'stretch' when needed most. I haven't been able to find his September statistics but I have heard them on the radio and they are sick. At a time when they were fighting for a playoff birth, Pedroia stepped up at a much larger clip than Youk. I'd love to see the second half stats side by side...but I couldn't find them.
Pedroia, 2nd Half: .345/.402/.547
Youkilis, Sept.: .275/.398/.594
Youkilis, 2nd Half: .310/.403/.595
In other words, they hit about exactly the same. Youkilis just didn't have two poor months to start the year, which is why his final numbers are higher than Pedroia.
Also, I understand that people place great emphasis on second half and more specifically September stats when it comes to the MVP award, but that's another thing I just flat-out do not get. Performance in September is not more valuable than performance at any other time of the year, and shouldn't be given more weight.
You're probably right that those are the reasons the writers use. But position is absolutely the reason why Pedroia comes out as more valuable in nearly every advanced metric.Quote:
This is the real reason why Pedroia edged Youk. It doesn't have to do with positions.
What about the fact that Mauer is the one GETTING ON BASE ahead of Morneau, GIVING him those opportunities? Why is so little credit given to the enablers? At any rate, using statistics that give credit for things like that, such as Batting Runs Above Average and Win Probability Added, Mauer still comes out ahead of Morneau.Quote:
Originally Posted by kenny1234
I don't necessarily agree with this. Yes the entire year has to be weighed in but I do think a players 'value' to a team during the peak of the pennant race is more important than his 'value' in April / May. Sure, one could say if he had done well in Apr/May maybe they would be in a better position in Aug/Sept. but the fact is thats really an unknown. When they needed a boost, Pedroia was there in crunch time to step up.Quote:
Also, I understand that people place great emphasis on second half and more specifically September stats when it comes to the MVP award, but that's another thing I just flat-out do not get. Performance in September is not more valuable than performance at any other time of the year, and shouldn't be given more weight.
Now to be honest......as a Sawx fan who watches nearly all of the games (albeit not in their entirety often) I can easily make an arguement that Yuke was more deserving. I believe Pedey was the rightful winner, but Yukes defensive contributions far outweighted those of Pedroia. His ability to play 3rd, a position the team had little depth at, was with the Lowell injury.
Why? If you admit the fact that a win in September is equal to a win in April, what makes performance contributing to a win in September more valuable than performance contributing to a win in April?Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Look, I'd use "pennant race performance" as a tie-breaker. Take two players that have identical overall stats. If one had significantly better September stats in a pennant race than the other (who had significantly better stats in say, April), I'd vote for the first guy.
However, it seems that far too many people use it as a huge, primary consideration, and THAT is what makes no sense to me. People that argue for Ryan Howard to be the MVP cite his September stats, say "He carried the Phillies into the playoffs!" but they COMPLETELY ignore that he was terrible for most of the year (and they also completely ignore that Albert Pujols also had fantastic September stats, and was also in a playoff race).
I'd give it consideration in a close vote (which, I admit, the AL was), but it shouldn't be the primary, deciding factor, as so many people use it as (not saying anybody here, but just from the ballot explanations from many voters I've read in the past couple days).