Pedroia named AL MVP

As expected.

I'd like to congratulate the BBWAA on getting all the award winners correct this year (the AL award would've been terribly hard to screw up, as there were 5-6 players who could legitimately stake a claim, and they did almost screw up the NL). Too bad the overall voting results were a mess.



Justin Morneau came in 2nd place and got 7 first place votes. Ick. How unappreciated is Joe Mauer? Mauer came in 4th, but come on. Also, I'm loving the 5th place vote to Jason Bartlett. Somebody actually bought the "He's the Rays MVP" nonsense? And shame on the voter that left Pedroia off their ballot completely. And, K-Rod doing so well is pitiful, as well. And just as with the NL voting, the pitcher votes did not line up at all with the Cy Young votes.

These people must've been drinking some crazy kool-aid, or smoking some wacky tabacky.

Yay Pedrioa! But why were Ibanez and Bartlett on there?

And Mike Mussina, but not Roy Halladay. I was sure at least one voter would give Halladay a vote for being "old school" and throwing complete games.

This thread speaks the truth about the vote.

http://zip.4chan.org/sp/res/476207.html

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Originally Posted by Moot

This thread speaks the truth about the vote.

http://zip.4chan.org/sp/res/476207.html

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That forum is the most disorganized forum ever. i can't stand it

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

That forum is the most disorganized forum ever. i can't stand it

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That's 4chan for ya.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

That's 4chan for ya.

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Yea, i know

Pedroia has more MVP awards than Manny Ramirez, Todd Helton, Edgar Martinez, Jim Thome and Carlos Delgado. But perhaps worst of all? He has won the same number of MVP's as Ken Griffey Jr.

and chipper jones :p

And he has more than Ty Cobb :p

And Derek Jeter. ;_;

Interesting little bit from Rob Neyer regarding how Joe Mauer has placed behind Justin Morneau now twice when the evidence was rather convincing that Mauer was more valuable:

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But for as long as I've been doing this, I've been told that I don't see enough games, that I don't know what it really takes to win, that I don't appreciate the little things that don't show up in the box scores.

And for as long as I've been doing this, every time the MVP voters have a choice between the guy with the power stats and the guy who does the little things, they pick the guy with the big numbers.

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The way the writers ignored ARod is bordering on flat-out ignorance of the game. His best place on ANY ballot was 5th (I love how Jason Bartlett also had one 5th place vote)? And he only received TWO votes higher than 7th place?

Ridiculous.

Wow... just wow...

Pedroia wasn't even the MVP of his own team.

How the hell does .326 BA, .376, .493, 17 home runs, and 81 RBI's.

BEAT

.312, .390, .569, 29 home runs, and 115 RBI's. (Kevin Youkilis)

OR EVEN

.304, .371, .530, 32 home runs, and 130 RBI's. (Josh Hamilton)

OR EVEN

.321, .436, .563, 22 home runs, and 77 RBI's. (Milton Bradley)

I had Pedroia in my top 5, but wow, I cannot believe that little man won MVP. I acknowledge that he's a fantastic player, and I actually love his style of player, but Kevin Youkilis was much better than Dustin Pedroia at every aspect of the game except speed.

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Originally Posted by justanewguy

The way the writers ignored ARod is bordering on flat-out ignorance of the game. His best place on ANY ballot was 5th (I love how Jason Bartlett also had one 5th place vote)? And he only received TWO votes higher than 7th place?

Ridiculous.

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I totally agree with that... He had much better numbers than Pedroia also. Though, the Yanks weren't a playoff team, so I'd still put Youkilis over my boy A-Rod.

koolzach1, you're forgetting the key adjustment - position.

See, this is the nonsense that's not needed:

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As Tony Massarotti of the Boston Globe points out, Pedroia was the only player in the majors last season to finish with at least 175 hits, 75 runs, 75 RBIs, 15 homers, 20 stole bases while winning a Gold Glove.

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I hate this type of "analysis". For nearly any player, you can find a group of arbitrarily selected statistics and set arbitrary cutoff points so that he's the only player that fits the criteria. When you also add an award to the list of criteria, it gets even more ridiculous.

Carlos Beltran had 172 hits, but otherwise fits that. Grady Sizemore had 170 hits, but otherwise fits that (plus, Sizemore got on base 9 more times than Pedroia, but we all know walks are meaningless).

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

See, this is the nonsense that's not needed:

I hate this type of "analysis". For nearly any player, you can find a group of arbitrarily selected statistics and set arbitrary cutoff points so that he's the only player that fits the criteria. When you also add an award to the list of criteria, it gets even more ridiculous.

Carlos Beltran had 172 hits, but otherwise fits that. Grady Sizemore had 170 hits, but otherwise fits that (plus, Sizemore got on base 9 more times than Pedroia, but we all know walks are meaningless).

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Nice sarcasm.

Also, who cares about position adjustment... (no offense) it is so stupid to give the MVP to a guy just because he plays a different position.

So, I assume that if Ryan Howard were a 2nd baseman, than he'd have killed Pujols in the NL MVP race.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Justin Morneau came in 2nd place and got 7 first place votes. Ick. How unappreciated is Joe Mauer? Mauer came in 4th, but come on.

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This baffles me that anyone can look at the stats ot watch a Twins game and think that the Morneau is as close to a valuable to that team

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And shame on the voter that left Pedroia off their ballot completely.

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Just to play Devil's advocate here (though i agree no one should have left him off) :

One can interpret it by saying you can only have 1 player on the team be the most valuable; and its perfectly reasonable to think the Youkilis was more valuable to the Sox this year.

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Originally Posted by koolzach1

Also, who cares about position adjustment... (no offense) it is so stupid to give the MVP to a guy just because he plays a different position.

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Why?

What Pedroia did offensively as a second basemen is more valuable than what Youkilis did as a first basemen. It's because of scarcity. It's easier to find a good hitting first basemen. The average first basemen is a better hitter than the average second basemen. Furthermore, good defense up the middle is more valuable than good defense at first base.

When discussing value, players need to be compared to those at their position. A .280/.350/.450 season wouldn't be anything special for a first basemen, but it'd be one of the better second base seasons in the league (assuming all other things were equal). In the simplest terms, it's harder to come by a second basemen with Pedroia's ability than it is to come by a first basemen with Youkilis's ability, therefore, Pedroia is more valuable.

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So, I assume that if Ryan Howard were a 2nd baseman, than he'd have killed Pujols in the NL MVP race.

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He might have, but even then he shouldn't have (and that's assuming you mean "If a second basemen had Howard's stats", because Ryan Howard playing second base would be hilarious to watch, and his defense would absolutely kill his value). Pujols was heads and shoulders above everybody else no matter how you slice it. Chase Utley deserved to be way higher than 15th in the voting, and was way more valuable than Ryan Howard to the Phillies.

Positional adjustment is very important to take into consideration.

The numbers that Youkilis put up as a first baseman were above average, but the numbers Pedroia put up as a second basemen put him in the upper-most tier of Major League second baseman.

The only second baseman who has an argument for being as good or better than Pedroia is Chase Utley, and FWIW I do think Utley is better.

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Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG

The only second baseman who has an argument for being as good or better than Pedroia is Chase Utley, and FWIW I do think Utley is better.

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I'd put Ian Kinsler in the conversation, if we're talking about actually like, whose BETTER. If we're talking about value provided this year, than yes, only Utley tops Pedroia because Kinsler missed a large portion of time.

Utley is clearly the best second basemen in the game. That's not debatable. Then there's a group beneath him - Kinsler, Pedroia, Brian Roberts, Dan Uggla...and then everybody else.

FWIW, that group, I'd rank them Pedroia-Kinsler-Roberts-Uggla. I would put Kinsler ahead of Pedroia, but Pedroia's very good defense beats out Kinsler's sub-par fielding, but I think Kinsler's bat is enough to keep him over Roberts.

Cano will be atop of that discussion again after next season.

Potentially. He really needs to work on his plate discipline/pitch recognition.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Potentially. He really needs to work on his plate discipline/pitch recognition.

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Yeah, I agree, but let's not forget this kid's 2006 season (or even 2007 season)...

My questions is how can you be the Most Valuable Player when your teammate gets 2 1st place votes.

Sports really need to adopt two awards, one for the player most valuable to his team and the other for, simply, the best player.

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

My questions is how can you be the Most Valuable Player when your teammate gets 2 1st place votes.

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Because there's 28 individual people voting with different opinions?

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Sports really need to adopt two awards, one for the player most valuable to his team and the other for, simply, the best player.

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Maybe I'm as stupid as a rock, but I still cannot understand at all how the player that performs the best in a given season is not the player that provided his team with the most value.

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

My questions is how can you be the Most Valuable Player when your teammate gets 2 1st place votes.

Sports really need to adopt two awards, one for the player most valuable to his team and the other for, simply, the best player.

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Now, that would be a discussion.

MVP - Youk/Mauer/Pedroia
BPA - A-Rod/Hamilton/Youk

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Maybe I'm as stupid as a rock, but I still cannot understand at all how the player that performs the best in a given season is not the player that provided his team with the most value.

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I agree. I used to think the same was as GSG seems to be thinking, but I've come around to what you're preaching, HGM.

But, every year, there's always that discussion in one sport. So and so's the best player, but he didn't make the playoffs/he had a great supporting cast, etc. It'd be simpler to just split it into two awards, or redefine MVP.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Because there's 28 individual people voting with different opinions?

Maybe I'm as stupid as a rock, but I still cannot understand at all how the player that performs the best in a given season is not the player that provided his team with the most value.

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Yes you can. Because you said this.

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When discussing value, players need to be compared to those at their position. A .280/.350/.450 season wouldn't be anything special for a first basemen, but it'd be one of the better second base seasons in the league (assuming all other things were equal). In the simplest terms, it's harder to come by a second basemen with Pedroia's ability than it is to come by a first basemen with Youkilis's ability, therefore, Pedroia is more valuable.

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So you acknowledge that value has a subjective quality to it.

Take the BM AI for example. It may jump at a chance to trade a C shortstop for a C+ right fielder. But, if it already had a B RF and now has a D SS the trade didn't have value. In this instance an average shortstop would have more value than an above average right fielder.

Pedroia gave the Red Sox something they were lacking this year with Papi and Manny not producing as expected, that's why he got a lot of votes.

I won't-can't-explain every vote but I know you understand that value is different in different situations

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Originally Posted by filihok

I won't-can't-explain every vote but I know you understand that value is different in different situations

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Especially the 5th place vote for Jason Bartlett. :confused:

Yea, I don't see a difference between Value and Being a better player....

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

Especially the 5th place vote for Jason Bartlett. :confused:

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He was the missing piece for the come outta nowhere 2008 Tampa Rays???

They had a shitty SS in 2007 and an average SS in 2008 and look where it got them

If a player goes 300/20/100 on a team with a bad supporting cast, but makes the playoffs, he's more valuable than the 330/40/130 guy on the awesome team with awesome supporting cast.

Without the first player, that team doesn't make the playoffs. As for the second player, his team could go without.

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Originally Posted by filihok

So you acknowledge that value has a subjective quality to it.

Take the BM AI for example. It may jump at a chance to trade a C shortstop for a C+ right fielder. But, if it already had a B RF and now has a D SS the trade didn't have value. In this instance an average shortstop would have more value than an above average right fielder.

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I don't understand how position is subjective.

I think that Pedroia was a better player this year than Youkilis, hence, I think he was more valuable. Comparing the two players purely offensively without regard for anything else, yes, Youkilis was a better hitter, but that's a poor way to analyze the best OVERALL player. When analyzing which players, overall, were better, many more factors need to go into it - position, defense, baserunning, etc.

And while your example is accurate, I don't see how that's related to an MVP discussion. It's related to a discussion of evaluating players and fitting needs, but that's not the same type of player evaluation as an MVP award.

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Pedroia gave the Red Sox something they were lacking this year with Papi and Manny not producing as expected, that's why he got a lot of votes.

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I don't disagree with the Pedroia choice (Well, technically, I do, as I had him 5th on my ballot, but it's a fine choice considering how close all the top candidates were). However, regardless of how Manny and Ortiz played, I'd still have Pedroia in the same slot on my MVP ballot (barring Manny or Ortiz having played better than Pedroia).

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I won't-can't-explain every vote but I know you understand that value is different in different situations

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When discussing which players provided more value to their teams than other players, I do not understand why the performance of those players' teammates should affect the discussion.



Anyway, I'm curious about something.

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Originally Posted by koolzach1

How the hell does .326 BA, .376, .493, 17 home runs, and 81 RBI's.

BEAT

.312, .390, .569, 29 home runs, and 115 RBI's. (Kevin Youkilis)

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Question.

For their careers, who was the better player:

.303/.369/.516, 332 HR, 1287 RBI
.285/.344/.452, 282 HR, 1061 RBI

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Originally Posted by filihok

He was the missing piece for the come outta nowhere 2008 Tampa Rays???

They had a shitty SS in 2007 and an average SS in 2008 and look where it got them

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I know you're not advocating that position, but that's horrible logic. It's crediting their entire turnaround to one positional upgrade.

There's also this...They had an eh 3B in 2007, and a great 3B in 2008. And they had a shitty CF in 2007, and a very good CF in 2008...etc. Using that logic, there's maybe 5 other players on the Rays that would've been a better 5th place vote than Jason Bartlett.

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Originally Posted by gosensgo101

If a player goes 300/20/100 on a team with a bad supporting cast, but makes the playoffs, he's more valuable than the 330/40/130 guy on the awesome team with awesome supporting cast.

Without the first player, that team doesn't make the playoffs. As for the second player, his team could go without.

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Why should the performance of a player's teammates matter for an individual award?

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

And while your example is accurate, I don't see how that's related to an MVP discussion. It's related to a discussion of evaluating players and fitting needs, but that's not the same type of player evaluation as an MVP award.

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By your definition of 'value'.

It's the Most Valuable Player.

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When discussing which players provided more value to their teams than other players, I do not understand why the performance of those players' teammates should affect the discussion

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That's the way a lot of people look at it. What did MVP Candidate bring the team that they were lacking otherwise.

Not trying to change your mind, but you said you didn't understand. I'm just trying to explain. If you meant 'I don't agree', that's fine.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I don't understand how position is subjective.

I think that Pedroia was a better player this year than Youkilis, hence, I think he was more valuable. Comparing the two players purely offensively without regard for anything else, yes, Youkilis was a better hitter, but that's a poor way to analyze the best OVERALL player. When analyzing which players, overall, were better, many more factors need to go into it - position, defense, baserunning, etc.

And while your example is accurate, I don't see how that's related to an MVP discussion. It's related to a discussion of evaluating players and fitting needs, but that's not the same type of player evaluation as an MVP award.


I don't disagree with the Pedroia choice (Well, technically, I do, as I had him 5th on my ballot, but it's a fine choice considering how close all the top candidates were). However, regardless of how Manny and Ortiz played, I'd still have Pedroia in the same slot on my MVP ballot (barring Manny or Ortiz having played better than Pedroia).


When discussing which players provided more value to their teams than other players, I do not understand why the performance of those players' teammates should affect the discussion.



Anyway, I'm curious about something.


Question.

For their careers, who was the better player:

.303/.369/.516, 332 HR, 1287 RBI
.285/.344/.452, 282 HR, 1061 RBI

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I'd probably take the first guy, but it really depends on their respective era.