This year's Hall of Fame ballot

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12-01-2008, 06:41 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by flapper

How many years did Catfish Hunter have?

He played in 15 different seasons. He was only good for like 4 or 5 of them though ;)
12-01-2008, 06:44 PM
flapper

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

I only asked about Catfish Hunter because didn't they waive the 5 year wait for him, Clemente, and Gehrig. If I spelled one wrong I apologize.
12-01-2008, 06:45 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by flapper

I only asked about Catfish Hunter because didn't they waive the 5 year wait for him, Clemente, and Gehrig. If I spelled one wrong I apologize.

I don't believe they waived it for him. He got in in 1987, 8 years after he retired. They only waive the 5 year wait in the event of death.
12-01-2008, 06:46 PM
BINGLEBOP

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

I believe that's what they did with Darryl Kile being on the ballot after he died.
12-01-2008, 06:47 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by BINGLEBOP

I believe that's what they did with Darryl Kile being on the ballot after he died.

Yep, and Rod Beck.
12-01-2008, 06:50 PM
flapper

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Didn't Hunter die in a plane crash?
12-01-2008, 06:50 PM
metsguy234

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

I also disagree with the arguement against him, and yes, I am sure that is Poets complaint. Though I am sure some will say he had too few hits or played to short or something gay

Played too short or something gay? That implies he played for not a long enough time or he did a homosexual act? Or does it mean that he played too short or something happy? Because it certainly SHOULD NOT mean- played too short or something stupid. That is totally wrong to use that as a putdown.
12-01-2008, 06:51 PM
metsguy234

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Because he allegedly used steroids.

(I 100% disagree with that argument against him, but it's the only legitimate argument against him).

You know, when a reporter finds steroids INSIDE YOUR LOCKER... that goes beyond ALLEGEDLY.
12-01-2008, 06:52 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by flapper

Didn't Hunter die in a plane crash?

Nope, from Wiki:

Quote:

Hunter died at his home in Hertford, North Carolina in 1999 after he took a fall down the stairs at his home. He had been suffering from amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (also known as Lou Gehrig's Disease) at the time.

Clemente died in a plane crash.
12-01-2008, 06:53 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsguy234

You know, when a reporter finds steroids INSIDE YOUR LOCKER... that goes beyond ALLEGEDLY.

They found androstenedione in his locker, which was a perfectly legal supplement at the time.
12-01-2008, 06:55 PM
OldFatGuy

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

They found androstenedione in his locker, which was a perfectly legal supplement at the time.

Beat me to it. :p
12-01-2008, 06:56 PM
metsguy234

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Stop using wins and losses.

Blyleven finished in the top 10 in his league in ERA+ 12 times, with 1 time leading the league and 7 times in the top 5. He finished in the top 5 in strikeouts 12 times.

Blyleven is a victim of playing on relatively poor teams.

http://www.baseballanalysts.com/ - Check out the "Bert Blyleven series" on the side.

Who are you to tell him what stats he can or can't use?

Wins matter. Wins affect every sport and every game that has ever existed.

ERA+ , ERA-, ERA whatever doesn't affect a game directly
12-01-2008, 06:57 PM
RickD

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

They found androstenedione in his locker, which was a perfectly legal supplement at the time.

Just getting ready to say that!
12-01-2008, 06:57 PM
flapper

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

I knew about Clemente. Wasn't there a good/great Yankees player in the 70s die of a plane crash while still a player?
12-01-2008, 06:57 PM
metsguy234

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

They found androstenedione in his locker, which was a perfectly legal supplement at the time.

But that's now illegal, as it is well known that it ENHANCES YOUR PERFORMANCE.

Illegal, not illegal, whatever. Mark McGwire didn't actually hit those 588 HRs all by himself.
12-01-2008, 06:58 PM
EVEN11323

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by flapper

I knew about Clemente. Wasn't there a good/great Yankees player in the 70s die of a plane crash while still a player?

Thurman Munson
12-01-2008, 06:58 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsguy234

Wins matter. Wins affect every sport and every game that has ever existed.

Except that's not what the pitching stat "Wins" measures.

Quote:

ERA+ , ERA-, ERA whatever doesn't affect a game directly

Really? You're wrong. How many runs a pitcher allows has a very direct affect on game play. In fact, it's the pitcher's goal to prevent runs..
12-01-2008, 06:59 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsguy234

But that's now illegal, as it is well known that it ENHANCES YOUR PERFORMANCE.

What the law is now is irrelevant. Players should not be penalized for using things that were legally available for them to use.

Quote:

Illegal, not illegal, whatever. Mark McGwire didn't actually hit those 588 HRs all by himself.

No baseball player has racked up his stats solely on his own. Every baseball player weight trains, uses nutriotional and health supplements, etc.
12-01-2008, 07:00 PM
RickD

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsguy234

But that's now illegal, as it is well known that it ENHANCES YOUR PERFORMANCE.

Illegal, not illegal, whatever. Mark McGwire didn't actually hit those 588 HRs all by himself.

Hindsight is 20/20...if he used it after the ban then you would have something here. However he used it before the ban! BEFORE!
12-01-2008, 07:01 PM
metsguy234

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Mussina had the misfortune of pitching during a time in which we saw a near-unprecedented run of pitching talent with the likes of Maddux, Glavine, Johnson, Pedro, etc. I don't think that necessarily should keep him out of the Hall.

Okay, Mike Mussina is awesome. This statement (I'm not even quite sure if it's relevant, but it sounds good) isn't meant to discredit Mussina (who should definitely make the HOF) in any way, but:

Mussina also pitched during an time when there was the best hitting ever.
12-01-2008, 07:03 PM
metsguy234

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickD

Hindsight is 20/20...if he used it after the ban then you would have something here. However he used it before the ban! BEFORE!

It wasn't illegal back then. That's a fact, I am not denying that.

But- It was still a performance enhancing drug- therefore he didn't do nearly as well as his stats show.
12-01-2008, 07:04 PM
metsguy234

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Except that's not what the pitching stat "Wins" measures.

Really? You're wrong. How many runs a pitcher allows has a very direct affect on game play. In fact, it's the pitcher's goal to prevent runs..

ERA matters directly.

ERA+ doesn't.
12-01-2008, 07:05 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsguy234

It wasn't illegal back then. That's a fact, I am not denying that.

But- It was still a performance enhancing drug- therefore he didn't do nearly as well as his stats show.

Yes. He did. What his stats show is exactly how well he did.

Cortisone is a "performance-enhancing drug". It is also a steroid. Nearly every baseball player today has gotten a cortisone shot which allowed him to play through pain, therefore enhancing his performance.
12-01-2008, 07:06 PM
flapper

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by EVEN11323

Thurman Munson

That's who I was thinking of.
12-01-2008, 07:07 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsguy234

ERA matters directly.

ERA+ doesn't.

ERA+ adjusts for context. It does matter directly. A 3.00 ERA in 1968 is very different from a 3.00 ERA in 1998.
12-01-2008, 07:16 PM
metsguy234

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

ERA+ adjusts for context. It does matter directly. A 3.00 ERA in 1968 is very different from a 3.00 ERA in 1998.

But you'll never hear on a sportscast:

"And Bob Smith has 3 ERA+'s today"

IMO the only stats that matter directly:
-W
-L
-S
-BS
-BB (Pitching and hitting)
-K (Pitching and hitting)
-H
-AVG
-ERA
-HR
-3B
-2B
-1B
-E
-IBB/WP
-PB
-SB
-CS
-OBP
-All those weird fielding stats (like putouts)
-Fielding Pct.
-Winning Pct.
-HBP
-IP
-WHIP

That's all I can think of for now
12-01-2008, 07:18 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsguy234

But you'll never hear on a sportscast:

"And Bob Smith has 3 ERA+'s today"

Doesn't mean that it doesn't matter.
12-01-2008, 07:19 PM
metsguy234

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Doesn't mean that it doesn't matter.

I made a list of all the stats that I personally consider important.
12-01-2008, 07:21 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsguy234

I made a list of all the stats that I personally consider important.

And most of the stats that you say aren't important just take those stats that you do consider important, and combine them together, adjust for context, etc.
12-01-2008, 07:34 PM
JeepGuy63

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

He deserved anywhere from 1-3 Cy Young awards, but was victimized by playing on poor teams and thus having poor won-loss records. He's also sort of the Mike Mussina of his generation - near the top of the league for a very long team but rarely ever AT the top. And I think Mussina deserves to be in the HOF.

Here we go again.

He deserved or he got 1-3 Cy Young Awards?

Henderson and McGwire get the nods.
12-01-2008, 07:36 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepGuy63

Here we go again.

He deserved or he got 1-3 Cy Young Awards?

He deserved.

Basing Hall of Fame decisions on the opinions of the same people voting for the Hall of Fame is pretty silly in my opinion, especially considering those people place far too much weight on relatively meaningless statistics like wins. The Hall of Fame should be decided on performance record.
12-01-2008, 07:37 PM
metsguy234

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

He deserved.

Basing Hall of Fame decisions on the opinions of the same people voting for the Hall of Fame is pretty silly in my opinion, especially considering those people place far too much weight on relatively meaningless statistics like wins. The Hall of Fame should be decided on performance record.

Wins matter.

Wins are the most meaningful stat there is.

The objective of any game is to WIN.

If you WIN, you did good.

If you got the LOSS, you did bad.
12-01-2008, 07:38 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by metsguy234

If you WIN, you did good.

If you got the LOSS, you did bad.

Pitcher A throws a complete game, allows 1 run. His team scores 0. He gets a loss.

Pitcher B goes 5 innings, allows 10 runs, his team scores 14. He gets a win.

You're telling me Pitcher B did good and Pitcher A did bad?

Wins on a team level matter. "Wins" the pitching stat, don't.
12-01-2008, 07:49 PM
flapper

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

I always thought most current HoF voters only had a limited knowledge of the game. Pretty much knowlege of their team, and possibly their division is all they may really know. If that is true, then we have an issue here. If pitcher A has 275 wins, 2800k, winning percent of .520, then most people probably will not vote him in. They are the ones looking for the special stat that stands out. That could be 25-30% of the vote which hurts the guys like Mussina, Blyleven.

Personally, if Blyleven was on good teams his whole career, he would not be in this discussion. He probably would have 50-75 more wins. probably 200-300 more strikeouts, and probably career Win percent of .570. He would also be in the Hall no questions asked.

That's only speculation on my part but who knows.
12-01-2008, 07:55 PM
metsguy234

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

I really hope the writers vote in Orosco. He was an amazing prolific pitcher and he deserves enshrinement in the Hall.
12-01-2008, 07:55 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

If we're going to induct LOOGYs, we might as well just burn the place down.
12-01-2008, 08:21 PM
flapper

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

I was looking at the poll for this year's candidates and here is who I would vote for:
Bert Blyleven
Andre Dawson
Rickey Henderson
Tommy John
Jack Morris
Dale Murphy
Dave Parker
Tim Raines
Jim Rice
Lee Smith

I would vote for Blyleven, John, and Morris on the basis they all had similiar stats. Dale Murphy had 14 solid years and he was the rock of the Braves. Rickey is the best of the bunch overall.

McGwire was my 11th choice. I took him off but I believe he should be in the Hall. When is it believed he started taking the suppliments? I didn't know if it was before he started getting hurt or after.
12-01-2008, 08:24 PM
JeepGuy63

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoustonGM

He deserved.

Basing Hall of Fame decisions on the opinions of the same people voting for the Hall of Fame is pretty silly in my opinion, especially considering those people place far too much weight on relatively meaningless statistics like wins. The Hall of Fame should be decided on performance record.

What?

So, we should base his performance on your decisions and what you think is the difference between a very good pitcher and a Hall of Fame pitcher?

Why use statistics at all then? I am sure that whatever statistics you want to use, someone else will say those are pretty useless to use and vice versa. At some point, there has to be some numbers that say "Yes, you are a HOFer". Fortuneately or unfortuneately, 300 wins, 500 homers and 3,000 hits appear to be the magic numbers.
12-01-2008, 08:28 PM
HoustonGM

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepGuy63

So, we should base his performance on your decisions and what you think is the difference between a very good pitcher and a Hall of Fame pitcher?

No, we should base our evaluations of players on the way they performed.

Quote:

Why use statistics at all then? I am sure that whatever statistics you want to use, someone else will say those are pretty useless to use and vice versa. At some point, there has to be some numbers that say "Yes, you are a HOFer". Fortuneately or unfortuneately, 300 wins, 500 homers and 3,000 hits appear to be the magic numbers.

If you use those arbitrarily set benchmarks, there's a lot of very deserving players that don't get in. Instead of using arbitrarily set benchmarks, evaluate the performance as a whole.
12-01-2008, 08:30 PM
etothep

Re: This year's Hall of Fame ballot

Quote:

Originally Posted by JeepGuy63

Fortuneately or unfortuneately, 300 wins, 500 homers and 3,000 hits appear to be the magic numbers.

Looks like the number of pitchers getting in is about to take a serious blow then

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