Re: World Series Game 5 Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
I'm still not sure what the fascination with wins are.
That's because you're looking at it from a reverse angle from me, and this is probably because of my age and preference to old school baseball. You're looking at the fact that the bullpen blowing the lead shouldn't matter because the starter would've won if they hadn't blown up. Me, I look at like if you're a really good pitcher, you go deeper into a game and don't let the bullpen have as much of an impact.
Take Pitcher A who leaves 20 games after 6 innings with a 1 run lead, and Pitcher B who leaves 20 games after 8 innings with a 1 run lead. Both have similar ERA's, WHIP's, etc.
The only major stat that would end up much different in this scenario would be wins, as Pitcher B is almost certainly (I'd be willing to bet lots of money on it) going to end up with quite a few more wins. Now, it wasn't Pitcher A's fault, right? The bullpen blew it, right? Well, yeah, true, but Pitcher B is still better IMO. Much, much, much better IMO.
In the case of Hamels, it's not the lack of WINS that turns me off, its the lack of innings. Yeah, I know, it wasn't his fault it rained, but it did rain. And I know today's game is different. And to me, that just proves the pitchers like Seaver, Maddox in his prime, Carlton, etc. who pitched more deeply into games (thus minimizing chances of blown leads) had better chances of more wins, and were, IMNSHO, much better pitchers.
But, Hamels won, it's over, and I'm wrong again. No big news there. I'll be wrong again. But given the chance, I still just wouldn't vote for Hamels even though it wasn't his fault it rained and it wasn't his fault the bullpen blew the lead. But, I'm on the minority side of opinions on almost everything anyway.
Re: World Series Game 5 Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OldFatGuy
That's because you're looking at it from a reverse angle from me, and this is probably because of my age and preference to old school baseball. You're looking at the fact that the bullpen blowing the lead shouldn't matter because the starter would've won if they hadn't blown up. Me, I look at like if you're a really good pitcher, you go deeper into a game and don't let the bullpen have as much of an impact.
Which Hamels would've done if Mother Nature hadn't interfered, and could've (and likely should have) done in Game 1, as he was at just 102 pitches after 7.
Quote:
The only major stat that would end up much different in this scenario would be wins, as Pitcher B is almost certainly (I'd be willing to bet lots of money on it) going to end up with quite a few more wins. Now, it wasn't Pitcher A's fault, right? The bullpen blew it, right? Well, yeah, true, but Pitcher B is still better IMO. Much, much, much better IMO.
Yes, he's better because throwing more innings at the same level is better, not because he has more wins.
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In the case of Hamels, it's not the lack of WINS that turns me off, its the lack of innings. Yeah, I know, it wasn't his fault it rained, but it did rain. And I know today's game is different. And to me, that just proves the pitchers like Seaver, Maddox in his prime, Carlton, etc. who pitched more deeply into games (thus minimizing chances of blown leads) had better chances of more wins, and were, IMNSHO, much better pitchers.
What I bolded is really essential to this discussion. Pitchers of today have to be judged against pitchers of today.
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But, I'm on the minority side of opinions on almost everything anyway.
Don't be so hard on yourself.
Anyway, as for this specific award, no pitcher in this series threw more innings than Cole Hamels. There was no position player that really really stood out on the Phillies, either. Yeah, Ryan Howard had that one fantastic game, but was horrible outside of that. Ruiz and Werth had great series. But still, Hamels was absolutely essential this World Series for Philadelphia. He was the best starting pitcher on either team, and he performed as such.
Re: World Series Game 5 Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
metsguy234
Anyone with a game winning hit to win the whole damn thing should be a no-brainer for the WS MVP.
So in 2001, Luis Gonzalez deserved the award over Johnson and Schilling?
Re: World Series Game 5 Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
metsguy234
Cole Hamels... bad choice, man... bad choice
What series were you watching? He definitley deserved it!
Re: World Series Game 5 Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
OldFatGuy
I have to agree with MetsGuy on this one. Hamels only won 1 game, only pitched in two, and certainly at least one of the everyday players had a bigger impact on the World Series as a whole. Ryan Howard won two games almost by himself, at least equalling Hamel's two games he contributed in.
No way would I have voted for Hamel's. His overall postseason stats interfered with the voters judgement, IMO, since this was supposed to be based only on the WS.
Did you watch the games? He had great control in SUBPAR weather on Monday. In game one he really did hold Tampa at bay (no pun intended).
Look at his record. For some reason, he just does not get run support. But he still wins games.
Re: World Series Game 5 Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phightinphils
What series were you watching? He definitley deserved it!
He didn't get the game-winning hit in the final game, so he's no MVP!
:rolleyes:
metsguy, question. Every deciding World Series game has a player that got the hit that put his team up for good. According to you, that player should be the MVP? The entire first 3-6 games in the series mean nothing, and only the batter that got the go-ahead and stay-ahead RBI deserves the MVP? Really?
Re: World Series Game 5 Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
He didn't get the game-winning hit in the final game, so he's no MVP!
:rolleyes:
I would have to say the whole team should get the MVP award in this case. Everyone did contribute from top to bottom.
Re: World Series Game 5 Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phightinphils
I would have to say the whole team should get the MVP award in this case. Everyone did contribute from top to bottom.
It's called a World Series Ring. :) :p
Re: World Series Game 5 Discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
It's called a World Series Ring. :) :p
Very good point!
On another note, Charlie Manuel is probably now the most popular manager ever in Philadelphia. Let's just say that "Uncle Charlie" went from goat to a legend in two years in this city. God, I love Philadelphia! :D We can be brutal, but when things go our way, we just love everyone!
Re: World Series Game 5 Discussion
