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I considered Lester, and I've got him tied at #4 with Dice-K. I actually put Rivera third. No real clearcut #3 in my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I had a tough time figuring out where to put Hanley. He shouldn't be leading off, it seems like a waste of his power. It makes his numbers look weaker than they should. I've got Wright third and Manny a lot higher.Quote:
NL MVP:
Albert Pujols
Lance Berkman
Hanley Ramirez
David Wright
Chipper Jones
Carlos Beltran
Tim Lincecum
Jose Reyes
Matt Holliday
Manny Ramirez
I did the same thing, except with Nathan third. KRod deserves a nod for all those saves, but not first place.Quote:
AL Reliever of the Year:
Mariano Rivera
Francisco Rodriguez
Joakim Soria
Also the same, except I have Marmol and Kuo switched. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that sees how good Kuo has been this season. I gave him the edge over Marmol for consistency and for his ability to do the 2 inning thing or pitch as a lefty specialist.Quote:
NL Reliever of the Year:
Brad Lidge
Carlos Marmol
Hong-Chih Kuo
NL closers were largely unimpressive this season. Lidge is an easy #1 here.
If Ozzie gets the Sox to win these last two, he's my #1b, breathing down Maddon's neck. If not, Gardenhire is my #2.Quote:
AL Manager of the Year:
Joe Maddon
Ron Gardenhire
Terry Francona
No Ned Colletti?? :confused:Quote:
NL GM of the Year:
Doug Melvin (Milwaukee)
Jim Hendry (Chicago)
Pat Gillick (Philadelphia)
I've got Cantu first. Tatis second, since he was virtually retired for several years. It's hard for me to see Wood as coming back. He was good last season. I see Dempster as more of a comeback, possibly, and I'm pretty sure I'm putting him third here. Just because of his top 5 Cy Young performance this season.Quote:
NL Comeback Player of the Year:
Kerry Wood
Jorge Cantu
Rich Harden
Nope. He made good midseason pickups in Ramirez and Blake, but I feel that his mistakes like Juan Pierre and Andruw Jones played a huge role in making it so that he had to make a big move in order to get into the playoffs, whereas if he was making good moves all along, the Dodgers wouldn't have needed a huge acquisition like Manny to get into the playoffs. For GM of the year, I consider both in-season acquisitions and the decisions that led to the build-up of their team this season.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanewguy
I don't consider Juan Pierre (a mistake made a while ago) to count in this season. I feel like Andruw Jones was a good signing at the time, though it totally bombed. I put Colletti in first BECAUSE he corrected his own mistakes, without adding any salary and without giving up anything important. The Dodgers usually rest on their haunches before the trade deadline. Also, the decision to hire Torre (though probably more a McCourt decision) factors into this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I've got Michael Hill in my top 3 as well. I think he did an extraordinary job considering what was handed to him, and he seems to have evaluated the team's talent and capabilities very well.
I've changed my AL 1B Silver Slugger, giving Youk the top spot over Morneau, and I've also moved Morneau down on my MVP ballot.
AL MVP:
1. Dustin Pedroia
2. Justin Morneau
3 Joe Mauer
4. Josh Hamilton
5. Kevin Youkilis
6. Joe Mauer
7. Carlos Quenin
8. Jermaine Dye
9. Grady Sizemore
10. Vladimir Guerrero
NL MVP:
1. ALbert Pujols
2. Ryan Howard
3. Chipper Jones
4. Lance Berkman
5. Matt Holliday
6. C.C Sabathia
7. Hanley Ramirez
8. Carlos Delgado
9. Chase Utley
10. Ryan Braun
AL Cy Young:
1. Cliff Lee
2. Roy Halliday
3. Dice-k (as much as I HATE the walks)
NL Cy Young:
1. C.C Sabahia
2. Tim Lincecum
3. Brandon Webb
AL Rookie of the Year:
1. Evan Longoria
2. Alexei Ramirez
3. Jacoby Ellsbury
NL Rookie of the Year:
1. Geovany Soto
2. Joey Votto
3. Hiroki Kuroda
AL Relief Pitcher of the Year:
1. Joe Nathan
2. JOakim Soria
3 J. Papelbon
NL Relief Pitcher of the Year:
1. Brad Lidge
2. Kerry Wood
3. Brian Wilson
AL Manager of the Year:
1. Joe Maddon
2. Ron Gardenhire
3. Ozzie Gillen
NL Manager of the Year:
1. Ned Yost (thats right I went there)
2. Jerry Manual
3. Lou Pinella
AL GM of the Year:
1. Tampa Bay
2. Angels
3. Boston
NL GM of the Year:
1. Brewers
2. Cubs
3. Dodgers
Just remember to submit via PM/email to finalize.
this is my rough draft but thank you for the reminder.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
A whole lot of support for Pedroia so far.
the major part of the award to me is MOST VALUABLE meaning a player that the team could not do without... without Pedria the Sox would hae been nowhereQuote:
Originally Posted by justanewguy
The problem with that definition is that A LOT of players fit that description.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNamelessPoet
Without Youkilis, the Red Sox would've been a lot worse. Without Daisuke or Jon Lester or Jon Papelbon, etc. etc. etc.
A load of non-Red Sox players fit this same description in the AL too. Lee, Sizemore, ARod, Quentin, Dye, Mauer... it's a really confusing race. I thought I had it nailed down but I've been rethinking it today.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Gee, you must be still shocked from the Brady injury. WHERE the FREAK is Ryan Howard on the NL MVP ballot. HE WILL win it. What did Pujols do for his team? NOTHING!Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
And I think you are little biased about Fuentes there buddy. Lidge was lights out for the Phillies this year. A perfect 41 of 41 in save opportunities and he is the number two? BUZZ! WRONG! TRY AGAIN!
I am so sick of the ANTI-Philadelphia thinking that goes on!
While you're correct about Brad Lidge being far and away the best reliever in the NL, you're letting your PRO-Philadelphia thinking completely blind yourself in the MVP race. Pujols did nothing for his team? You've got to be kidding me.Quote:
Originally Posted by phightinphils
Albert's batting average was 106 points higher than Howard's. His batting average was higher than Howard's ON-BASE percentage. Yes, Albert Pujols got a hit at a higher rate than Ryan Howard got on base.
Albert's on-base percentage was 123 points higher than Howard's.
Albert's slugging percentage was 110 points higher than Howard's.
Albert Pujols plays the best defense of any first basemen in the league. Ryan Howard is poor defensively.
Albert Pujols had one month where his OPS was below 1.000, and that was July where his OPS was .978. Ryan Howard's July OPS was equivalent and his September OPS was 1.274, but other than that, he only had one other good month, where he OPS'd .934 in May. He was abysmal in April and June and not good in August. The MVP is a full season award. Albert Pujols played at an MVP level for the entire season from start to finish. Ryan Howard had one fantastic month, two good months, and three bad months, with two of those being downright atrocious.
Ryan Howard won't win the MVP in real life, because the voters, no matter their love affair with RBI, won't overlook his batting average. He also doesn't deserve to win it, as he's barely one of the top 5 first basemen in the league this year (Pujols, Berkman, Adrian Gonzalez, Carlos Delgado, and then maybe Howard).
There's not really any "anti-Philadelphia" thinking... well, anywhere. Lidge shouldn't be overlooked (he's so clearly #1 it's not even funny), but choosing Brian Fuentes is more likely a case of homerism than being "anti-Philadelphia."Quote:
Originally Posted by phightinphils
What did Pujols do for his team? He made them a winning team and one of the NL's best for most of the season, instead of a 5th or 6th place team.
He also put up numbers that are so much better than Howard's that it's laughable.
Besides, Utley is more valuable than Howard. Utley's right in the middle of my top 10 and Howard is nowhere near. 15th, maybe, if I were to go that far. That's probably even a stretch. Probably 20th-ish.
Obviously you do not watch every Phillies game. Howard pretty much carried this team offensively for the final two months of the season. It was entire team effort, but Howard's bat is number one.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanewguy
Okay Pujols has a better average, but his team was awful. And he doesn't scare me at all. He is getting to his washed up point of his career anyway.
I obviously didn't watch every Phillies game. Why the hell would I? Where would I even find the time to watch every game for a team I don't root for? And one that's outside of my market no less? So only people who watched every Philadelphia game have any clue who the MVP should be?Quote:
Originally Posted by phightinphils
By your argument, Manny Ramirez is a better candidate than Howard... BY FAR. Obviously you didn't watch every Dodger game.
You're acting like your favorite team is the only team out there.
:confused:Quote:
Okay Pujols has a better average, but his team was awful. And he doesn't scare me at all. He is getting to his washed up point of his career anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by justanewguy
If Ramirez wins the MVP, then Abner Doubleday and all the passed away Hall of Famers will roll over in their graves. It would be a crime to give an MVP award to someone who QUIT on his previous team that season.
Yes, but he carried his team for 2 months and took them into the playoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by phightinphils
That's your criteria for MVP, right?
Two things:Quote:
Originally Posted by phightinphils
1) The MVP award is for the whole 6 months, not just August and September.
2) Ryan Howard hit .213/.328/.463 with 7 HR and 19 RBI in August, which is pretty terrible for a first basemen....which means, he carried the team for one month, September, which is true, but, see #1.
Why should a player's team matter for an individual award?Quote:
Okay Pujols has a better average, but his team was awful.
Irrelevant. NL managers as a whole are more scared of Albert Pujols than they are Ryan Howard, as evidenced by Pujols's 34 intentional walks compared to Howard's 17. Howard's intentional walks were cut in half from where he was the previous two seasons, indicating that pitchers have found holes in his huge swing and are no longer afraid to pitch to him, and his much decreased performance holds that to be true.Quote:
And he doesn't scare me at all.
LOL. :rolleyes: Yes, a guy at age 28, coming off what is arguably the best season of his career, is getting to his washed up point of his career. :rolleyes:Quote:
He is getting to his washed up point of his career anyway.
Only if said player plays on one's favorite team. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by justanewguy
No, beacuse he is the most deserved.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
What makes Howard (who is less valuable than Utley) more deserving than Manny?Quote:
Originally Posted by phightinphils
Let alone Pujols, Berkman, Wright, etc.
How?Quote:
Originally Posted by phightinphils
Unless you completely ignore gigantic chunks of the season, and the fact that there are multiple players who do everything better than Ryan Howard, there is no logical argument for Ryan Howard being the MVP.
Manny quit on the Red Sox to get traded. Plus it is another league. It should not count. You need to play in the same league the entire year to be the MVP for that league. Just purism.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanewguy
Utley was consistent throughout the year. But Howard had a monster August & September. His strikeouts were down, and his OBP was up. Without that, take away about 10 wins from the Phils. That is the difference between making the playoffs and playing golf. Hence, MVP!
Need more?
Shouldn't you also have to...play GOOD for the entire year, or at least most of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by phightinphils
Again, incorrect. He had a monster September. That's it. He was bad in August. Chase Utley was good all year, and played Gold Glove defense at second base.Quote:
Utley was consistent throughout the year. But Howard had a monster August & September. His strikeouts were down, and his OBP was up.
Also, the MVP award is for the entire season. This fact seems to slip your mind repeatedly. It is not the MVP of September and maybe August award. It is the MVP of the 2008 season award.
No player can produce 10 wins by himself over the course of a 2 month period. The best players each year produce 10-13 wins over the course of a full season, with the truly legendary seasons producing 13+ wins.Quote:
Without that, take away about 10 wins from the Phils. That is the difference between making the playoffs and playing golf. Hence, MVP!
There are many stats that use Wins as a metric. For example, Wins Above Replacement from Baseball Prospectus, which Ryan Howard is worth roughly 5 wins this year. Albert Pujols is roughly 13. Win Shares can be put into wins. Howard had 18 Win Shares, and 3 wins shares = 1 win, so he was worth 6 wins using the Win Shares system. Pujols was worth roughly 10 wins using Win Shares.
Your math is grossly off if you think Ryan Howard was single-handedly worth 10 wins in two months.
Yes, and good luck with it, because it takes a huge stretching of the facts, and completely ignoring entire chunks of the season and multiple other, better players, in order to make Howard the MVP.Quote:
Need more?
Oh I can get it. It just isn't worth the time to explain it. Obviously some people are overly biased due to numerous reasons. I call it like I see it. If you can't agree with it, then that is your decsion to deny it. Your loss. I am not losing any sleep over it.
I definitely agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by phightinphils
What's also funny is there were stretches of the season where they were pitching around him to get to Howard. What about Utley's monster first half, if we want to count monster stretches so much? Without that you can take away a ton of wins and the Phillies have to go even further to catch the Mets later on.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Barry Bonds could. :)Quote:
No player can produce 10 wins by himself over the course of a 2 month period.
Other than that, Walter Johnson is the only player I can think of who could come close to it. Unless he's pitching in 2008 without weight training, of course.
Also, outside of the numbers, Manny was probably responsible for large numbers of wins for his team in August and September. It seemed to be a rare case where there's tangible evidence of intangible benefits. The team loosened up, the young players started having fun, and everyone immediately became better.
CC did the same thing, and though I'm not putting him in my Cy Young ballot, I'm wrestling with sticking him in the thick of the MVP voting for the same reasons I've got Manny up there.
But even if you're arguing who got who into the playoffs...
No CC = Mets win the wild card
No Manny = Diamondbacks win the NL West
No Howard = I don't know what, but with an average 1B they'd probably still be in the playoffs because of Utley, Burrell, and that solid pitching of theirs.
PHINALLY! Some positive resposnes about the Phils. That is all I wanted to hear. Thank you very much!Quote:
Originally Posted by justanewguy
His highest WARP3 was 15.4, which he did in both 1993 and 2001.Quote:
Originally Posted by justanewguy
Johnson's highest WARP3 was 18.3 in 1913.Quote:
Other than that, Walter Johnson is the only player I can think of who could come close to it. Unless he's pitching in 2008 without weight training, of course.
Now, that's just one win-based stat, but still. I've never seen a win-based stat put players any higher than that, really.
:confused: That they're a playoff team WITHOUT Ryan Howard? Doesn't that shoot down the "Howard for MVP" argument?Quote:
Originally Posted by phightinphils
The Phillies are a very good team. Ryan Howard's just no MVP, as he's not even the most valuable player on his own team. Chase Utley, Brad Lidge and Cole Hamels are each more valuable, and Jimmy Rollins and Pat Burrell have arguments as well, although it's close between them two and Howard. It's not anti-Philadelphia bias that has us say Howard isn't MVP. It's that...he just didn't have a great year if you can look past his HR and RBI totals.
No, it doesn't, but some positive responses about the Phillies is a rare thing. So I will take it.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
I may be biased towards Howard, but he delivers the hits. I watch every game. He may not have given them 10 wins, but he has given them the wins to get to the playoffs.
I think what gets me the most is Ramirez was on that list and Howard wasn't. Ramirez is a punk for quitting on his team. And those numbers he put up since he went to the Dodgers, if he continued that pace for an etnire season with one team, I would have no problem calling him the best player to ever play baseball. But he didn't, and the only reason he is doing this is because he quit on the Red Sox just to get traded.
I was thinking more in terms of raw wins and less in terms of wins above an average player. WARP is more relevant, and yeah, nobody is doing 10 in 2 months.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Bonds' numbers circa 2001 really skew sabermetrics, though. His stats don't make any sense in any format. He was an intangible case much like Manny is.
Manny sure has a weird way of "quitting on his team" then...you know, playing good and all. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by phightinphils
I honestly have no idea why you guys are even bothering to argue with PP, its blatantly obvious that his bias is clouding any semblance of sound judgment.
Anybody have ideas for AL comeback player...I only have 2 so far(Lee and Santana)
Mike Mussina...Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sox Fan 734
Carlos Quentin and Milton Bradley, but I don't really consider them comebacks.
Holy Cow Vlad and Alexi Ramereiz cant speak english
Aubrey Huff. He wasn't exactly TERRIBLE, but he took a dive for a while, and this season was so good for him that he's got my #3 vote after Lee and Mussina.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sox Fan 734