Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
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Yup.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
But Lee Smith had the all-time record for so long. It's just... different.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
No. You just don't have an argument. You make up reasoning and change it at whim in order to fit your bias.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Saves is flawed. Case closed. The closer is not even necessarily (or shouldn't necessarily be) the best reliever in the bullpen. Sometimes the setup man has more intense situations to come into than bottom/top of the ninth, bases empty, 3 run lead.
Also, Pesky's number being retired is awesome, I whole heartedly agree with that. I think that Rice's number should be retired as well, and Francona's. Ramirez.... perhaps. Ortiz will have to do more for the Sox before retiring that number.
When did M. Rivera have the record for most career saves? That's right. NEVER!Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Thanks for playing though...:D
I don't even think you know what you're attempting to argue right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Remember, you once said that you have to look beyond saves, in response to me quoting Rivera's very high save total.
And yet, you're using nothing but saves to say that Trevor Hoffman is the best reliever ever.
Well, what other stats really work for measuring relievers?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
ERA, K/9, K/BB, OPB all work if you want some basic onesQuote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Um ERA+, K/9 K:BB, WHIP, HR%, FiP xFiP ... the same metric you use to eval ANY pithcer ....Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
Yea, HR% and WHIP work as well for simple ones
Lee Smith career statistics:
3.03ERA
1.25WHIP
8.79K/9
478 Saves
Trevor Hoffman career statistics:
2.78 ERA
1.05 WHIP
9.62 K/9
552 saves
Mariano Rivera career statistics:
2.29 ERA
1.02 WHIP
8.21 K/9
480 saves
(All stats according to baseball-reference)
Now if you had used this argument, you could argue that Hoffman is a better closer than Rivera. Simply that Hoffman beat Rivera to Smith's record means nothing when you see that Hoffman started his career two seasons earlier. Through their first thirteen seasons (both debuted at age 25, both were 37 at the end of their respective thirteenth seasons):
Hoffman (1993-2005):
406 saves, including both 1993 when he only had 5, and 2003 when he only pitched in 9 games.
Mariano Rivera (1995-2007):
443 saves, including both 1995 when he only pitched in 19 games, 9 in relief, and got 0 saves, and 1996 when he only got 5 saves.
Post age 37 saves:
Hoffman- 116
Rivera- 37
Hoffman has had three seasons since he hit age 37, Rivera has had one. At that pace, Rivera will have 111 saves at the conclusion of his 16th season, which will put him 40 over Hoffman's current total of 552 saves.
Saves mean absolutely nothing. Even I could come in with a three run lead and not give up three runs. My dog could come in a game with a 27 run lead, pitch 3 innings and get a save. Saves are the most retarded stat in baseball. People think K-Rod is so great because he has 60 saves. Both Joakim Soria and Brad Lidge are having better seasons then K-rod. Also, do some of you guys think Gary Sheffield is a lock for the HOF? I think he is borderline at best.
See the Gary Sheffield thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Sox Fan 734
http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=184228
NICE list Bonds,Clemens & Sosa WILL get in but not 1st timers (due to Steroids "allegations") & Sheffield may have some trouble due to his "interesting" persona - I would list them (& this is based on likely hood of 1st time entry rather TRUE worth) as follows:Quote:
Originally Posted by justanewguy
1. Greg Maddux
2. Tom Glavine
3. John Smoltz * I am surprised YOU left him out!
4. Pedro Martinez
5. Ken Griffey Jr.
6. Ivan Rodriguez
7. Trevor Hoffman
8. Frank Thomas
9. Randy Johnson
10. Mariano Rivera
11. Mike Piazza
12. Roger Clemens *(DEPENDS really on his trials + indictments & could slip or go up)
13. Barry Bonds
14. Jeff Kent
15. Sammy Sosa
16. Gary Sheffield
* even the Yankees are "moving" away from him !
haha i do all that research hoping to fuel a fight between metsguy and everyone else
darn... lol
No, i still think he's misguided...but yeah. Saying Sheffield is a LEGENDARY first ballot player even though he's almost certainly used steroids, and he's limping to 500 HR's in an offensive inflated area...but Pedro doesn't deserve inclusion??Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX
Smoltz over Johnson? Rivera in tenth? Hoffman in 7th? Bonds in 13th? I am sorry, but I would not consider a RELIEVER in my top 16, and Bonds should be way higher, Smoltz lower, and Hoffman under Rivera
He's listing them as to what he thinks the LIKELIHOOD OF THEM BEING ELECTED is.Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
That said, the first 11 guys he listed are 100% locks, so the order is really irrelevant. Clemens, Bonds, and Sosa would be locks if not for steroid considerations. Kent and Sheffield are up in the air for a variety of reasons.
Oh, duh :).Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Read what I said ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
Smoltz has the numbers both starter wise & reliever wise & is way more "liked" than Big Unit! Hoffman = Saves All time leader & Bonds - well is Bonds = BALCO + all the other federal cases + "suspicion" + "not a nice guy" - AS I said it is likely hood of 1ST time "ins" not actual ability. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
btw Did you ever see Smoltz's domination during his peak (96' - 99') he was Pedroesque BEFORE Pedro!
Smoltz as good as Martinez? You cannot possibly be serious. I can only assume this was an attempt at levity.
I love Smoltz. He has had a great career, and he will make the HOF some day. But there is absolutely no way possible he is/was EVER in the same class as Pedro. In fact, he wasn't ever in the same class as Clemens, Maddux, or Randy Johnson.
Come on now.
Yeah....what? For one, 1996-1999 wasn't "before Pedro." In that time period, Smoltz threw 863.2 innings with a 143 OPS+. Pedro threw 905 innings with a 173 OPS+. Smoltz ranked 6th in OPS+ during that time period, behind Pedro, Johnson, Kevin Brown, Greg Maddux, and Roger Clemens.
Smoltz never came close to Pedro's level of domination. Very few pitchers have.
Roger ClemensQuote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Greg Maddux
Christy Mathewson
Cy Young
Sandy Koufax
Tom Seaver
Nolan Ryan
Bob Gibson
Steve Carlton
Tom Glavine
Mike Mussina
Pete Alexander
Pud Galvin
Whitey Ford
Ron Guidry
Johan Santana
Roy Oswalt
John Smoltz
Randy Johnson
Jamie Moyer
Curt Schilling
Tim Wakefield
Fergie Jenkins
Dennis Eckersley
Trevor Hoffman (Screw it, let's do relievers too!)
Mariano Rivera
Lee Smith
Billy Wagner
John Franco
Hoyt Wilhelm
Goose Gossage
Dwight Gooden
Juan Marichal
I think that's good for now on the list of "Whos better then Pedro"
Wow, I'm good at the "Who in baseball history is better then Pedro? game"
Thats wonderful. Just one problem with your list. About 80% of those guys were never even as good as Pedro Martinez.
LOLOLOL.
Dude, you make me crack up. Tim Wakefield is better than Pedro Martinez? Jamie Moyer? Dwight Gooden?
hahaaahahahahaha.
At least those guys were consistent. A good player has to be consistent- Pedro Martinez is not consistent.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
I think you've lost it. Really, I urge you, look at Pedro Martinez's career before saying these crazy statements.
You're a funny troll at least.
Most of those guys weren't especially consistent, actually. Somewhat up and down, for the most part. Certainly no more consistent than Martinez, anyway.
SHOOTER Galvin knows more about Baseball then you.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
I''m actually starting to worry now, Mets. Did you suffer a blow to the head recently? Suffering dizzy spells...blackouts?Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
I think he cut off his man parts and became one of those ESPN female reporters who know nothing about the sport
As opposed to the ESPN male reporters who are masters of knowledge? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies
What males? They are all women, just not attractive, and are all flat, well except for Kruk :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Blast
Wow, leave it to metsguy to sidetrack a good thread.
First, as a Red Sox fan, I thoroughly support Pesky's number being retired. I wonder if anyone knows, realizes, or finds it ironic that Pesky's number (6) is the same number worn on that infamous October, 1986 night by one Bill Buckner?
The Red Sox are well known for having the most restrictive number retirement policy in professional sports. In 107 years of history, with all the greats that have come through there, Pesky's will be only the 6th number retired by the franchise. Bobby Doerr (1), Joe Cronin (4), Carl Yastrzemski (8), Ted Williams (9), and Carlton Fisk (27) are the only currently retired numbers.
No one has worn Rice's 14 since he retired, and that will be the next to be retired, as soon has he is, deservedly, elected to the Hall of Fame.
No one has worn Boggs' 26 since he was elected to the Hall of Fame, and that number should have already been retired. Personal conflicts probably have held it up, but it should be done.
5, 21, and 45 have not been reissued since Nomar, Clemens, and Pedro left, respectively. I would be shocked if, in the present climate, Clemens' 21 is retired, but it may eventually be when the steroid furor cools. Neither Nomar or Pedro has met the 10 year service rule, and I would be shocked if either of them ever get a sign on the wall in Fenway, given the numbers who haven't.
Manny falls into the same category as above. He didn't spend 10 years in Boston, and while he may have made great contributions over a shorter period, so did many, many people who haven't had their numbers retired.
Ortiz could get there eventually. However, out of the present crop of Red Sox, I'd say the most likely to fulfil the 10-year rule would be Youkilis and Pedroia, who seem to be the building blocks of the Red Sox next generation. No, I'm not saying they'll be Hall of Famers, or that 20 and 15 will be on the right field wall, just that Youkilis and Pedroia will spend 10 years in a Red Sox uniform.
Terry Francona has been a great manager for a team that has not had an iconic manager in their history. There hasn't been a Tommy Lasorda, a Casey Stengel, a Sparky Anderson, a Bobby Cox, or an Earl Weaver in Boston. But I'd want to see at least another 10 years in the dugout and another couple titles before retiring his number (or his turtleneck, since I've never seen Tito with a jersey number visible). I think you have to be on the level of one of those icons to get your number retired as a manager.
And don't get me started on retiring numbers for executives and owners who never set foot on the field except to collect trophies and toss first pitches.
I'd be shocked if Pedro's number isn't retired sometime after he retires.
Henry should at least get a litle thought for the HOF and Tito already has taken the Sox to the playoffs more than any other manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckwillard