Red Sox to retire Pesky's number

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

When did M. Rivera have the record for most career saves? That's right. NEVER!

Thanks for playing though...:D

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I don't even think you know what you're attempting to argue right now.

Remember, you once said that you have to look beyond saves, in response to me quoting Rivera's very high save total.

And yet, you're using nothing but saves to say that Trevor Hoffman is the best reliever ever.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I don't even think you know what you're attempting to argue right now.

Remember, you once said that you have to look beyond saves, in response to me quoting Rivera's very high save total.

And yet, you're using nothing but saves to say that Trevor Hoffman is the best reliever ever.

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Well, what other stats really work for measuring relievers?

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Well, what other stats really work for measuring relievers?

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ERA, K/9, K/BB, OPB all work if you want some basic ones

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Well, what other stats really work for measuring relievers?

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Um ERA+, K/9 K:BB, WHIP, HR%, FiP xFiP ... the same metric you use to eval ANY pithcer ....

Yea, HR% and WHIP work as well for simple ones

Lee Smith career statistics:
3.03ERA
1.25WHIP
8.79K/9
478 Saves

Trevor Hoffman career statistics:
2.78 ERA
1.05 WHIP
9.62 K/9
552 saves

Mariano Rivera career statistics:
2.29 ERA
1.02 WHIP
8.21 K/9
480 saves

(All stats according to baseball-reference)

Now if you had used this argument, you could argue that Hoffman is a better closer than Rivera. Simply that Hoffman beat Rivera to Smith's record means nothing when you see that Hoffman started his career two seasons earlier. Through their first thirteen seasons (both debuted at age 25, both were 37 at the end of their respective thirteenth seasons):

Hoffman (1993-2005):
406 saves, including both 1993 when he only had 5, and 2003 when he only pitched in 9 games.

Mariano Rivera (1995-2007):
443 saves, including both 1995 when he only pitched in 19 games, 9 in relief, and got 0 saves, and 1996 when he only got 5 saves.

Post age 37 saves:
Hoffman- 116
Rivera- 37

Hoffman has had three seasons since he hit age 37, Rivera has had one. At that pace, Rivera will have 111 saves at the conclusion of his 16th season, which will put him 40 over Hoffman's current total of 552 saves.

Saves mean absolutely nothing. Even I could come in with a three run lead and not give up three runs. My dog could come in a game with a 27 run lead, pitch 3 innings and get a save. Saves are the most retarded stat in baseball. People think K-Rod is so great because he has 60 saves. Both Joakim Soria and Brad Lidge are having better seasons then K-rod. Also, do some of you guys think Gary Sheffield is a lock for the HOF? I think he is borderline at best.

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Originally Posted by Red Sox Fan 734

Saves mean absolutely nothing. Even I could come in with a three run lead and not give up three runs. My dog could come in a game with a 27 run lead, pitch 3 innings and get a save. Saves are the most retarded stat in baseball. People think K-Rod is so great because he has 60 saves. Both Joakim Soria and Brad Lidge are having better seasons then K-rod. Also, do some of you guys think Gary Sheffield is a lock for the HOF? I think he is borderline at best.

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See the Gary Sheffield thread.
http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=184228

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Originally Posted by justanewguy

Out of the active players at or closing in on retirement, Pedro is right up there at the top in terms of HOF worthiness. Doing my best not to forget anyone, I'd rank it something like this:

1. Barry Bonds
2. Greg Maddux
3. Frank Thomas
4. TIE - Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Roger Clemens
7. Ken Griffey Jr.
8. Mike Piazza
9. Tom Glavine
10. Mariano Rivera
11. Jeff Kent
12. Sammy Sosa
13. Ivan Rodriguez
14. Trevor Hoffman
15. Gary Sheffield

Roughly... point is, Pedro is easily one of the most deserving players of this generation (with some incredible players above and around him). Everyone I listed from 1 to 12 is a lock, and only an idiot would deny them.

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NICE list Bonds,Clemens & Sosa WILL get in but not 1st timers (due to Steroids "allegations") & Sheffield may have some trouble due to his "interesting" persona - I would list them (& this is based on likely hood of 1st time entry rather TRUE worth) as follows:


1. Greg Maddux
2. Tom Glavine
3. John Smoltz * I am surprised YOU left him out!
4. Pedro Martinez
5. Ken Griffey Jr.
6. Ivan Rodriguez
7. Trevor Hoffman
8. Frank Thomas
9. Randy Johnson
10. Mariano Rivera
11. Mike Piazza
12. Roger Clemens *(DEPENDS really on his trials + indictments & could slip or go up)
13. Barry Bonds
14. Jeff Kent
15. Sammy Sosa
16. Gary Sheffield


* even the Yankees are "moving" away from him !

haha i do all that research hoping to fuel a fight between metsguy and everyone else

darn... lol

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I used to think that you were just incredibly misguided and have yet to teach yourself about baseball....but now, I think you're just a troll, and you're saying the things you do for no other reason than to get reactions.

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No, i still think he's misguided...but yeah. Saying Sheffield is a LEGENDARY first ballot player even though he's almost certainly used steroids, and he's limping to 500 HR's in an offensive inflated area...but Pedro doesn't deserve inclusion??

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Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX

NICE list Bonds,Clemens & Sosa WILL get in but not 1st timers (due to Steroids "allegations") & Sheffield may have some trouble due to his "interesting" persona - I would list them (& this is based on likely hood of 1st time entry rather TRUE worth) as follows:


1. Greg Maddux
2. Tom Glavine
3. John Smoltz * I am surprised YOU left him out!
4. Pedro Martinez
5. Ken Griffey Jr.
6. Ivan Rodriguez
7. Trevor Hoffman
8. Frank Thomas
9. Randy Johnson
10. Mariano Rivera
11. Mike Piazza
12. Roger Clemens *(DEPENDS really on his trials + indictments & could slip or go up)
13. Barry Bonds
14. Jeff Kent
15. Sammy Sosa
16. Gary Sheffield


* even the Yankees are "moving" away from him !

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Smoltz over Johnson? Rivera in tenth? Hoffman in 7th? Bonds in 13th? I am sorry, but I would not consider a RELIEVER in my top 16, and Bonds should be way higher, Smoltz lower, and Hoffman under Rivera

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Smoltz over Johnson? Rivera in tenth? Hoffman in 7th? Bonds in 13th? I am sorry, but I would not consider a RELIEVER in my top 16, and Bonds should be way higher, Smoltz lower, and Hoffman under Rivera

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He's listing them as to what he thinks the LIKELIHOOD OF THEM BEING ELECTED is.

That said, the first 11 guys he listed are 100% locks, so the order is really irrelevant. Clemens, Bonds, and Sosa would be locks if not for steroid considerations. Kent and Sheffield are up in the air for a variety of reasons.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

He's listing them as to what he thinks the LIKELIHOOD OF THEM BEING ELECTED is.

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Oh, duh :).

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Oh, duh :).

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Read what I said ;)

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Originally Posted by RedsoxRockies

Smoltz over Johnson? Rivera in tenth? Hoffman in 7th? Bonds in 13th? I am sorry, but I would not consider a RELIEVER in my top 16, and Bonds should be way higher, Smoltz lower, and Hoffman under Rivera

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Smoltz has the numbers both starter wise & reliever wise & is way more "liked" than Big Unit! Hoffman = Saves All time leader & Bonds - well is Bonds = BALCO + all the other federal cases + "suspicion" + "not a nice guy" - AS I said it is likely hood of 1ST time "ins" not actual ability. :)

btw Did you ever see Smoltz's domination during his peak (96' - 99') he was Pedroesque BEFORE Pedro!