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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
So, if those assumptions are wrong, I'd suggest perhaps using a different tone so that you're not misunderstood
I am Houston, if I make an incorrect assumption about you, then it is your fault.
I am Houston, if you take something that I say literally, then it is your fault.
I am Houston, if you state that you are not a member of a political party, I will continue to claim that you are.
I am Houston, if you tell me that I "must be high" I will tell you that I am "straight edge" and tell you again, and tell you that I stated that in a post 47 days ago.
I am Houston, I think (differently than you) therefore I am (right and you are wrong. Unless you are my friend, then you are one of numerous posters I can have an argument with and still be civil).
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Cut it the hell out. You're not even making any sense (especially that third sentence, what the hell?). You're jumping into a thread that you weren't participating in for the sole purpose of further instigating confrontation. And no, that's not an assumption.
I don't know what you have against me, but you're acting childish.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Houston, I certainly am not going to say he don't have the right to express your opinions, or what have you. Of course you do. However, there are times when it really is easier to just let something go. Even if you feel you're right, if the conversation has devolved in to nothing but a mass of circling arguments, just let it go. It's something I've noticed you tend to have a hard time doing. You're hardly the only one on these forums who could stand to learn this lesson, so don't think I'm trying to single you out for anything here.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
I believe the phrase is - Don't feed the trolls.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
Arctic Blast
Houston, I certainly am not going to say he don't have the right to express your opinions, or what have you. Of course you do. However, there are times when it really is easier to just let something go. Even if you feel you're right, if the conversation has devolved in to nothing but a mass of circling arguments
I totally agree on this.I understand that posters/bloggers/writers & your average "Joe Fan" love their team (& Baseball) & always second guess management decisions.
Is n't that the fun of being a fan ? However,one hs to also be objective in one's criticism & assessment - one has to remember that :
1) Teams GMs/managers' have way,way more information (&/or knowledge) about players' than we do &
2) they are paid employees & have a boss WHO tells them the aim of the franchise which they have to adhere to* & finally
3) stats do not ALWAYS show the whole truth.
It was these points I tried to convey & when a title is so fervent - I mean "What the h*ll..." is not a very complementary title start - then I,personally,was arguing that as much Gillaspie's call up was unusual/risky it was not necessarily stupid ether.
If Sabean was so incompetent like HGM has said** (on him but also others eg Dusty Baker) then why in the world would an owner keep him ? Why would he be the Giants' GM since 1997 ? Also why did they extend him in 07 ?
Doesn't he own one of the best records of GMs all time ? Isn't SFG a relatively successful franchise under his tenure?
I would like to point out I am not Sabean's "hidden son" nor even a Giants' fan - I do believe that GMs make good/bad/average decisions & their actions affect their club.
But actions produce results & reactions .In the case of the Giants' lost season bringing up Bonzo the Chimpanzee IF HE has talent & is a possible source of FUTURE improvement is a RISKY decision but also a CALCULATED risk considering a multiplicity of factors with a possible high return.
Examples include :Cleveland keeping Lee after his disastrous season in 07 when all the Indian media were crying out for him to be traded or released,the decisions made by White Sox/Cubs/Brewers this off season & during the season.
Anyhows,HoustonGM seems to have his likes (eg Beane/DePodesta) & his dislikes (Sabean in this case) & argues that the former do great moves/decisions whilst the latter the opposite.
I find it funny that Sabean has done exactly the same THIS YEAR as Beane - youth movement WHENEVER possible - & gets treated in the exact opposite manner by the said same poster.
Is calling up Gillaspie a good or bad move ? Who knows....but there is some logic behind it (read posts 10+)
Is Sabean a "fruitcake" for doing this ? Undoubtedly not OTHERWISE he still wouldn't be the Giants' GM.....
Will the 3 weeks in the majors ruin Gillaspie or Sandoval ? Nope but it may find them their 3B of 2009 & beyond.
Also Houston has a tendency to bombard us with "facts" which sometimes are not as factual as they appear - yes Gillaspie has had an average start*** to his pro career BY THE NUMBERS but he has proved to be an advanced College hitter & there are also numerable non statistical factors to add in - from makeup,human development,team NEEDS,timing,usage etc etc.
Anyways just wanted to clear things up & precise that I was replying to the 1st post/title's contention which is/was not as clear cut as seemingly made out.:):):)
* MaGowan during the "Barry" era was a fervent supporter of win now policy & "veteran" presence....Sabean as all employess do,simply acquiesed & traded away youngsters for veterans & signed FAs in this light.The policy has changed since mid 07 & the Giants' have finally accepted to rebuild using youth & FA (Rowand/Zito deals)
** PS GM send MaGowan your CV to replace Sabean after this season as your "knowledge" & skills are far,far superior allowing you to criticize his decision making & actual skills . You could restore then their halcyon days of dominance in the West no ?
*** Note it is not a "bad start" but "average" as hitting over .260 is average NOT Mendoza line bad....
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
FRENCHREDSOX
Doesn't he own one of the best records of GMs all time ? Isn't SFG a relatively successful franchise under his tenure?
Yeah, it sure does wonders for one's reputation when you get lucky enough to have a hitter on your team posting the greatest offensive seasons of all time.
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Anyhows,GM seems to have his likes (eg Beane/DePodesta) & his dislikes (Sabean in this case) & argues that the former do great moves/decisions whilst the latter the opposite.
Sorry, I don't make any blanket decisions like that. I prefer to evaluate each individual move on its merits. Not all moves Beane makes are good. Not all moves Sabean makes are bad.
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Is calling up Gillaspie a good or bad move ? Who knows....but there is some logic behind it (read posts 10+)
I never claimed there was no logic behind it, but rather, that I think it's a stupid move and that I don't agree with it.
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* MaGowan during the "Barry" era was a fervent supporter of win now policy & "veteran" presence....Sabean as all employess do,simply acquiesed & traded away youngsters for veterans & signed FAs in this light.
Yeah, true, which is the only point in favor of Sabean, that maybe it wasn't all him, but, even when given the task to rebuild, he makes poor decisions...
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The policy has changed since mid 07 & the Giants' have finally accepted to rebuild using youth & FA (Rowand/Zito deals)
Like that. Those two deals sure are turning out real well. It was a genius move, and a great way to rebuild, to hand a 7 year, $120 million deal to Barry Zito, and 5 years, $60 million to a below average hitter with okay defense. :rolleyes:
That's probably the difference between Beane and Sabean. Beane rarely, if ever, throws away money like that.
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** PS GM send MaGowan your CV to replace Sabean after this season as your "knowledge" & skills are far,far superior allowing you to criticize his decision making & actual skills . You could restore then their halcyon days of dominance in the West no ?
See? It's this type of stuff, said in this sarcastic tone, that makes me make statements like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Fine, major league organizations are infallible and can never make wrong or stupid decisions, as evidenced by the fact that whenever I disagree with a decision they make, inevitably, you or dickay (usually) immediately have to tell me why I'm wrong and the front office is right. Always. Front offices are infallible.
It's like I'm wrong for disagreeing with a major league front office, and that it's wrong to criticize them for moves they make.
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Originally Posted by
Arctic Blast
Houston, I certainly am not going to say he don't have the right to express your opinions, or what have you. Of course you do. However, there are times when it really is easier to just let something go. Even if you feel you're right, if the conversation has devolved in to nothing but a mass of circling arguments, just let it go. It's something I've noticed you tend to have a hard time doing. You're hardly the only one on these forums who could stand to learn this lesson, so don't think I'm trying to single you out for anything here.
I understand. It just gets pretty damn annoying that I can discuss, debate, and disagree with the majority of posters here just fine, and yet, a few can't just leave it at that, and have to talk down to me, accuse me of nonsense, and, what's perhaps the most annoying, make overly sarcastic, sometimes insulting, comments.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Yeah, it sure does wonders for one's reputation when you get lucky enough to have a hitter on your team posting the greatest offensive seasons of all time.
One player does not make a team...but hey you are right Bonds= Sabean's success.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
I understand. It just gets pretty damn annoying that I can discuss, debate, and disagree with the majority of posters here just fine, and yet, a few can't just leave it at that, and have to talk down to me, accuse me of nonsense, and, what's perhaps the most annoying, make overly sarcastic, sometimes insulting, comments.
Now WHERE did I make an "overtly" sacarstic ,sometimes insulting,comments ?
You,yourself denigrate others - for example calling Sabean (who again I emphasize I do not know personally) just in the "title of thread" & here again SIMPLY in the last post
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Those two deals sure are turning out real well. It was a genius move,:rolleyes:
rather, that I think it's a stupid move and that I don't agree with it.
Sabean, ........even when given the task to rebuild, he makes poor decisions..
If you are so much better (& by your own comments you seem to suggest you are OBJECTIVELY superior to Sabean) then I do stand by my comments---Actually (& more seriously) with your fervour you really SHOULD send your Baseball management CV to clubs or be hired by a team where your knowledge on the game can be used,thus combining your passion & work :)
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
FRENCHREDSOX
One player does not make a team...but hey you are right Bonds= Sabean's success.
When that player is posting OPS's above 1.200, yeah, it helps.
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Now WHERE did I make an "overtly" sacarstic ,sometimes insulting,comments ?
Right here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by FRENCHREDSOX
** PS GM send MaGowan your CV to replace Sabean after this season as your "knowledge" & skills are far,far superior allowing you to criticize his decision making & actual skills . You could restore then their halcyon days of dominance in the West no ?
Not insulting, but overly (not overtly) sarcastic.
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You,yourself denigrate others - for example calling Sabean (who again I emphasize I do not know personally) just in the "title of thread"
What do I call Sabean in the title of the thread? :confused:
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& here again SIMPLY in the last post
I said that I think the move is stupid. I said that I disagree with the move. I said that I think a lot of Sabean's decisions are poor.
So, having opinions on somebody's actions, or disagreeing with someone, means that I'm insulting them as a person?
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If you are so much better (& by your own comments you seem to suggest you are OBJECTIVELY superior to Sabean)
Disagreeing with a move does not mean that I think I would do a better job overall.
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Actually (& more seriously) with your fervour you really SHOULD send your Baseball management CV to clubs or be hired by a team where your knowledge on the game can be used,thus combining your passion & work :)
If it was that simple, I'd do it, and I have looked into it a bit, because that would be a pretty awesome line of work to get into, but it's a job that is in very high demand and you really have to separate yourself from the pack, and frankly, I'm not well-versed enough in statistics, analysis, or writing, to do that.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
boa
Who brought Bonds in?
I did. Sabean owes a huge portion of his "success" to Bonds.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
uh. to the giants i meant
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Bob Quinn? It was either him or Al Rosen
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
EVEN11323
Bob Quinn? It was either him or Al Rosen
Quinn.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
What do I call Sabean in the title of the thread? :confused:
I said that I think the move is stupid. I said that I disagree with the move. I said that I think a lot of Sabean's decisions are poor.
The implication in the title (& in the post attached) is that Sabean is once AGAIN incompetent as a GM which you further re-iterate when calling his action "stupid" & his decision's poor.
All in all it implies what you yourself are complaining about....the only difference is that you can reply to the posters ;)
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
So, having opinions on somebody's actions, or disagreeing with someone, means that I'm insulting them as a person?
Depends on the linguistics you use.
Calling a person you don't even KNOW & who cannot defend themselves (nor their actions) as stupid & foolish is yes insulting them as a person as you are implying their lack of intelligence in their actions/reactions & general decision making process.BTW here you are clearer in your feelings in the DUMBEST GM in Baseball:
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
The answer is clearly, CLEARLY Brian Sabean, with Bavasi, Colletti, and Ricciardi duking it out for 2nd place.
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
He's without a doubt a bad GM, but I just think Sabean's worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
By the way, I think Barry Zito is single-handedly proving Brian Sabean to be the worst GM in baseball. Handing out that much money for that long to a player who showed signs of decline is just incompetence at its worst.
For example how do you KNOW that it was Sabean who decided to sign Zito/Rowand or call up Gillaspie ? He is an employee of the Giants' organisation NOT the "head honcho" - he does what he is told like all employees,he may have been against the deals/moves but may have done them because of exterior effects or due to mitigating circumstances.
It was explained CLEARLY by another employee Evans,head of the Player development,why Gillaspie was called up & due to the circumstances in which the Giants are in why it was done now - clearly the decision was a "team management" effort & thus not solely Sabean's.
His overall record as a GM is positive & like all humans makes good & bad decisions WHICH can only be judged with hindsight & if all INFORMATION is known.That was why I posted in the first place
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
General managers aren't above criticism, and just because you think that Sabean is a good or okay or whatever GM doesn't mean that I shouldn't be allowed to have a different opinion. Just because I think he's a bad GM doesn't mean that I think he's a dumb person. I just think he makes dumb baseball decisions. If you disagree, fine, but I'm still allowed to have my opinion. Now who's trying to force their will upon others?
You're right that some of the moves he's made aren't solely his decision, but that's all we have to go on to judge his work, and sorry, but I disagree that his overall record as a GM is positive. You can't simply judge a GM by wins and losses of his team, because his team is made up of players that he played no part in acquiring. In order to properly analyze a GM, you have to look at the individual moves he's made and how they've worked out. Sabean's track record has a couple good moves (trading for Jeff Kent), but overall, is full of stinkers, like signing Michael Tucker minutes before the arbitration deadline, surrendering their first round draft pick.
Look, I don't care if you disagree, but stop trying to make it seem as though I'm not allowed to have a different opinion.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Wanted to bump this up. Wouldn't you think that the Giants would have actually played this guy if they wanted to get a good look at him? With one game left, he has only had 7 PAs and has only been in the field for 4 innings. Just confused why they wouldn't actually start him for at least a few games. Your thoughts?
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
EVEN11323
Wanted to bump this up. Wouldn't you think that the Giants would have actually played this guy if they wanted to get a good look at him? With one game left, he has only had 7 PAs and has only been in the field for 4 innings. Just confused why they wouldn't actually start him for at least a few games. Your thoughts?
Because it was probably just a verbal agreement when they signed his contract that they'd call him up at some point this year.
A stupid move, that did nothing except possibly harm his development.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
EVEN11323
Wanted to bump this up. Wouldn't you think that the Giants would have actually played this guy if they wanted to get a good look at him? With one game left, he has only had 7 PAs and has only been in the field for 4 innings. Just confused why they wouldn't actually start him for at least a few games. Your thoughts?
because as I said at the beginning of this thing, they probably wanted to keep him around baseball for a bit and have him get a glimpse at where he needs to be. I think its a great idea to bring up a young talent in Sept. when the minor league season is over. A chance to practice with the big boys and get a chance to see the talent level. I think it only makes him work harder and maybe humbles an arrogant kid as he may see he's not quite as ready as he thought. When he's called up for real in the future he can maybe act like he's been there before.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Because it was probably just a verbal agreement when they signed his contract that they'd call him up at some point this year.
A stupid move, that did nothing except possibly harm his development.
yeah??? playing & being around the real thing surely hurt his development more than either not playing since minor league ball is over or playing in some hack developmental league.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
A stupid move, that did nothing except possibly harm his development.
I don't know if this was a smart move - but how would practicing and watching in the major leagues hurt his development. Does a few more at-bats in A-ball this season really matter that much?
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
dickay
yeah??? playing & being around the real thing surely hurt his development more than either not playing since minor league ball is over or playing in some hack developmental league.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
I'd say playing and practicing in developmental leagues is better for his development than sitting on a major league bench, NOT playing.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
I'd say playing and practicing in developmental leagues is better for his development than sitting on a major league bench, NOT playing.
I'd disagree 100% depending on the situation, again of which i'm venturing Sabean and the Giants are closer to than you.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
You also have to take into account that this is using up a 40-man roster spot, for a player that isn't likely to contribute for at least another year or two.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
OK - then who was in the SF system that should have been called up instead? We have no idea what the motivation was for bringing him up. Maybe they thought that a month in the majors would give him the motivation to get better over the winter. Maybe he had a marginal injury and the time sitting on the bench in SF was better than sitting on the bench in A-ball. Unless he was holding back a prospect that would benefit more by being in the majors - do you actually think this will affect his development?
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
kenny1234
OK - then who was in the SF system that should have been called up instead?
They didn't need to call anybody up.
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We have no idea what the motivation was for bringing him up.
It's a pretty good guess that there was a verbal agreement during contract negotiations, much like the Nationals and Ross Detwiler last season.
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Maybe they thought that a month in the majors would give him the motivation to get better over the winter.
Maybe, but I don't see how.
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Maybe he had a marginal injury and the time sitting on the bench in SF was better than sitting on the bench in A-ball.
The A-ball season ends September 1st. If he had an injury, calling him up would really be completely weird, because wasting a 40 man roster spot on an injured player that doesn't need to be on the 40-man is..just...weird.
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Unless he was holding back a prospect that would benefit more by being in the majors - do you actually think this will affect his development?
I don't know if it will affect his development. It could go either way. I do know, though, that it takes up a spot on the 40-man roster on a player that wasn't going to contribute this year, and is unlikely to next year as well, and that's a spot that could be used on a player that is ready to contribute at the ML level.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
For me, in this situation it's not so much the development as it is the starting his option years too early. If he had waited till next year, when he'd be closer to major league level, he would have the 2009, 2010, and the 2011 seasons in which he can freely move his player up and down from majors to minors and vice versa. The ability to move a player from the majors to minors can be invaluable at this stage in his career.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
5dodgers5
For me, in this situation it's not so much the development as it is the starting his option years too early. If he had waited till next year, when he'd be closer to major league level, he would have the 2009, 2010, and the 2011 seasons in which he can freely move his player up and down from majors to minors and vice versa. The ability to move a player from the majors to minors can be invaluable at this stage in his career.
Yep, another consideration.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Yep, another consideration.
trivial and certainly not worth the 5+ pages of discussion. All things taken into account, I still don't see why its a bad move as the Giants surely are closer to the situation. Who's to say they had someone else to bring up for that 40th spot that would have 'contributed'?? And you have to weigh in the experience this kid is gaining and offset that vs. any contributions the other player you're so concerned about would be giving.
In the short, the kid wouldn't be playing anyway in the minors, the season is over. There are winter leagues, I don't know if they started yet or not. This kids makeup, they decided for whatever reason he could benefit from getting to see what the pros are like. Who cares?
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
5dodgers5
For me, in this situation it's not so much the development as it is the starting his option years too early. If he had waited till next year, when he'd be closer to major league level, he would have the 2009, 2010, and the 2011 seasons in which he can freely move his player up and down from majors to minors and vice versa. The ability to move a player from the majors to minors can be invaluable at this stage in his career.
To me, this is the primary criticism of the move. It's just extremely short-sited for Sabean to have done this (and it's not the first time, either). A real waste of a resource.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ohms_law
To me, this is the primary criticism of the move. It's just extremely short-sited for Sabean to have done this (and it's not the first time, either). A real waste of a resource.
I agree that is the most, well only IMO 'legitimate' criticism of the move....but each player needs to be taken individually and i'm quite sure there are hundreds of players where those options years are really useless as they never progress to a level where they are necessary. Now it's already been stated this guy isn't one of the top prospects in the game...the team possibly felt starting the clock early was a acceptable tradeoff for getting the kid some experience around the pros, something that could accelerate or kick start his development.
It all depends on the makeup and psyche of this kid...again something the team knows much more about than *most* of us.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
5dodgers5
For me, in this situation it's not so much the development as it is the starting his option years too early. If he had waited till next year, when he'd be closer to major league level, he would have the 2009, 2010, and the 2011 seasons in which he can freely move his player up and down from majors to minors and vice versa. The ability to move a player from the majors to minors can be invaluable at this stage in his career.
I'll agree with this criticism - though I'd point out that he'll actually have three more years of options.
[quote]
If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. If a player is on the 40-man roster and not the active 25 man roster for any part of more than three seasons, he is out of options and may not be assigned to the minors without first clearing waivers. However, if a player has less than 5 years of professional experience, he may be optioned to the minors in a fourth season without being subject to waivers.[\quote] That's from Wikipedia (not the best source so if it is wrong I apologize)
I don't know what the odds are that the extra option year really matters - I still think that this was a move to motivate a struggling player to really work at it this winter. And we'll never know if it worked.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
[QUOTE=kenny1234;1180715]I'll agree with this criticism - though I'd point out that he'll actually have three more years of options.
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If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. If a player is on the 40-man roster and not the active 25 man roster for any part of more than three seasons, he is out of options and may not be assigned to the minors without first clearing waivers. However, if a player has less than 5 years of professional experience, he may be optioned to the minors in a fourth season without being subject to waivers.[\quote] That's from Wikipedia (not the best source so if it is wrong I apologize)
I don't know what the odds are that the extra option year really matters - I still think that this was a move to motivate a struggling player to really work at it this winter. And we'll never know if it worked.
good find ;)
