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What the hell is Sabean doing?
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=mlb
The Giants called up their first round pick of this year's draft, Conor Gillaspie.
He hit .269/.352/.344 in ROOKIE ball in 24 games. He's 21 years old. He's a good prospect, but not major league ready. Why are the Giants wasting 40-man roster space on a player that is very unlikely to help them for at least a couple more years?
It's like Sabean went from having a fetish for "experienced veterans" to going crazy with calling up you guys you hit poorly in the low minors to the majors (see Brian Bocock).
I like this comment from the Baseball Think Factory thread on this:
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Originally Posted by Dan Szymborski
- Brian Bocock was promoted for even less merit than Gillaspie.
- Bocock was only a little bit worse than a player they're paying $5.2 million.
- Gillaspie is better than Bocock.
- Therefore, Gillaspie will save the team at least $5 million in 2009.
- The $5 million that Gillaspie saves the team will enable the Giants to sign Cesar Izturis to a 3-year, $28 million contract.
- The Giants win the 2009 World Series.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Good grief, I've finally figured it out!
Brian Sabean learned roster management from the worst examples of bumbling roster AI in Baseball Mogul! It all makes sense, now! His rushing a youngster to the lineup just cements it! :D
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
From Rotoworld:
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However, adding him to the 40-man roster now is the height of foolishness. The team is up to 13 infielders on the 40-man roster (including Kevin Frandsen on the 60-day DL), 10 of whom are 26 or younger. That's a whole bunch of spots already spoken for next year, and the Giants are going to have a tough time improving their current roster without jettisoning young players to do it.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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He hit .269/.352/.344 in ROOKIE ball in 24 games. He's 21 years old. He's a good prospect, but not major league ready. Why are the Giants wasting 40-man roster space on a player that is very unlikely to help them for at least a couple more years?
Is this REALLY that bad? The kids season in ROOKIE ball is over, and he wants to get him a small taste of where he needs to be professionally. If anything, it'll drive him more in my opinion. Do you think the Giants have 40 other candidates with more upside that deserve to be here instead? If Sabean thinks the kid is something special...and I'm 'ass'uming he does (frankly I know nothing of the kid) than I don't think it's such a bad idea. Maybe he's an innovator and using the last 4 or 5 roster spots on the Sept. 40 for young kids with egos is the wave of the future???
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
dickay
Is this REALLY that bad? The kids season in ROOKIE ball is over, and he wants to get him a small taste of where he needs to be professionally. If anything, it'll drive him more in my opinion. Do you think the Giants have 40 other candidates with more upside that deserve to be here instead? If Sabean thinks the kid is something special...and I'm 'ass'uming he does (frankly I know nothing of the kid) than I don't think it's such a bad idea. Maybe he's an innovator and using the last 4 or 5 roster spots on the Sept. 40 for young kids with egos is the wave of the future???
it limits the possibilities of signing free agents next year...Now the clock for the 6 year window will start. He will be eligible in 3 more seasons for Arbitration. 6 more seasons for Major league Free Agency...
Same thing happened with Seattle in 1995, They brought up A-Rod who didn't do so well even thou he hit something like .360 in Triple A. He would be eligible in 2000 now instead of 2001. And get this, because of that, the Mariners had Carlos Guillen instead of A-Rod playing Shortstop in 2001 for your 116Win Seattle Mariners.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
http://sanfrancisco.giants.mlb.com/n...t=.jsp&c_id=sf
that attempts to explain it. But good gosh, I would put Sandoval at 3rd before bringing a draft pick up prematurely.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=mlb
The Giants called up their first round pick of this year's draft, Conor Gillaspie.
He hit .269/.352/.344 in ROOKIE ball in 24 games. He's 21 years old. He's a good prospect, but not major league ready. Why are the Giants wasting 40-man roster space on a player that is very unlikely to help them for at least a couple more years?
It's like Sabean went from having a fetish for "experienced veterans" to going crazy with calling up you guys you hit poorly in the low minors to the majors (see Brian Bocock).
I like this comment from the
Baseball Think Factory thread on this:
You forgot Emmanuel Burriss ;)
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
boomboom
it limits the possibilities of signing free agents next year...Now the clock for the 6 year window will start. He will be eligible in 3 more seasons for Arbitration. 6 more seasons for Major league Free Agency...
Same thing happened with Seattle in 1995, They brought up A-Rod who didn't do so well even thou he hit something like .360 in Triple A. He would be eligible in 2000 now instead of 2001. And get this, because of that, the Mariners had Carlos Guillen instead of A-Rod playing Shortstop in 2001 for your 116Win Seattle Mariners.
See how greatt of a player AROD turned out to be? :D:D
I'm not saying he wouldn't have been great if they didn't do that...but who's to say he didn't greatly benefit from it?? Is a few years of eligibility and a cheap contract worth holding back or not helping a player become as good as he could be??
I'm playin devils advocate here....I"m not supporting the move, but am not attacking it either. I think it fair to say that there are some players that could greatly benefit from a taste in the show early in their development.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
RedsoxRockies
You forgot Emmanuel Burriss ;)
What about him? hes hitting .280ish. He'll easily be a starter next year barring some strange collapse.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
rogue9
What about him? hes hitting .280ish. He'll easily be a starter next year barring some strange collapse.
No, but he had never played above A-Ball I believe.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
I dunno... I don't think a GM of a losing team should be criticized for 40 man roster moves. The Giants are in huge trouble with their offense, so, something radical has to be done to shake things up. Gillaspie is supposed to be a great prospect, so, maybe giving him a little time with the team can give them a better idea of when he'll be ready. It's better than putting him on split squads and having him face AA pitchers in Spring Training.
Maybe they think he'll be ready in the second half of next season, or in 2010? Or even start on 2009 opening day? It's the Giants, after all. Again, they need a huge overhaul on offense. They don't have a 3B next season, and probably plan on using their money towards a star name. Manny, Teixeira? Not that they'll get either.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
dickay
I'm playin devils advocate here....I"m not supporting the move, but am not attacking it either. I think it fair to say that there are some players that could greatly benefit from a taste in the show early in their development.
Those players tend to be of the "super prospect" type, like Alex Rodriguez. Conor Gillaspie, while a solid prospect, is far from that level. If you look at the recent list of players that were called up the same year they were drafted, it's full mostly of players that crushed the ball in the minors, like Ryan Zimmerman and Rickie Weeks. Those players also had more of a "pedigree" so to speak, as they were FANTASTIC prospects, and not just very good ones.
And as boomboom said, it starts the arbitration/free agent clock too early, as well as taking up spots on the 40-man roster.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Those players tend to be of the "super prospect" type, like Alex Rodriguez. Conor Gillaspie, while a solid prospect, is far from that level. If you look at the recent list of players that were called up the same year they were drafted, it's full mostly of players that crushed the ball in the minors, like Ryan Zimmerman and Rickie Weeks. Those players also had more of a "pedigree" so to speak, as they were FANTASTIC prospects, and not just very good ones.
And as boomboom said, it starts the arbitration/free agent clock too early, as well as taking up spots on the 40-man roster.
Again, is this really that big of a deal?? Craig Hansen was one of those 'non-super prospects' called up the year he was drafted.
What is the difference between a 'super prospect'/FANTASTIC prospect and a 'solid prospect'? Interesting you can tell the difference because often the highest paid scouts cannot.
Seriously....they feel giving the kid a taste of what a pro level game is like will benefit him. They surely know more about the player than we do. Whether he makes it or not will more than likely have little to do with the early call up. Its the Giants for crying out loud.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
dickay
Again, is this really that big of a deal?? Craig Hansen was one of those 'non-super prospects' called up the year he was drafted.
Relievers are on a different scale than position players, and also, Hansen's another guy that tore through the minors, albeit in limited appearances. Gillaspie didn't hit well in the minors.
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What is the difference between a 'super prospect'/FANTASTIC prospect and a 'solid prospect'? Interesting you can tell the difference because often the highest paid scouts cannot.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. There are clearly different levels of "prospectdom" and any scout will tell you that.
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Its the Giants for crying out loud.
Which is precisely why I don't think that the possibility of it being some sort of "genius" move is all that high. Brian Sabean has demonstrated repeatedly that he cannot develop position players.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
OK....so you win. Yes, this move is very alarming, definetly worth taking issue with in this forum...and likely to cost the Giants at least two postseason births and millions of dollars. Fire Sabean now!!! :rolleyes::rolleyes:
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Uh...what?
No, it's not likely to hurt the team's playoff chances, as they have no playoff chances for a while barring a massive overhaul of the team. No, its' not likely to waste any of their money. No, this move alone isn't grounds to fire Sabean (although I'd argue that the overall body of Sabean's work IS enough to fire him). No, it's not a huge deal.
None of that means that, as a baseball fan, I can't give my opinion on a move and discuss it on a baseball forum.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
No, it's not likely to hurt the team's playoff chances, as they have no playoff chances for a while barring a massive overhaul of the team. No, its' not likely to waste any of their money. No, this move alone isn't grounds to fire Sabean (although I'd argue that the overall body of Sabean's work IS enough to fire him). No, it's not a huge deal.
None of that means that, as a baseball fan, I can't give my opinion on a move and discuss it on a baseball forum.
Wow....I drew a different conclusion after stating in my first post that it wasn't really a big deal and explained why. After someone else did as well. After you chimed back in with talk of super prospects, super duper prospects, and super duper duper spects with cherries on top. I kind of thought you were looking to argue that this is in fact a big deal somehow had more insight on the players development than me, everyone else in the forum, and the Giants themselves. ;)
If we are in agreement, why are we arguing? :confused:
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
dickay
Wow....I drew a different conclusion after stating in my first post that it wasn't really a big deal and explained why. After someone else did as well. After you chimed back in with talk of super prospects, super duper prospects, and super duper duper spects with cherries on top. I kind of thought you were looking to argue that this is in fact a big deal somehow had more insight on the players development than me, everyone else in the forum, and the Giants themselves. ;)
Disagreeing with a move doesn't mean I think it's a big deal. I disagree with the move to pull Cliff Lee from the game today after 104 pitches and 7 and a third innings, and then using 2 relievers to get the final 2 outs, but, it's not a big deal. I think calling up Gillaspie is a dumb move, and further shows Sabean's inability to develop position players, but, taken by itself, it's not a big deal.
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If we are in agreement, why are we arguing? :confused:
Because you're drawing assumptions that aren't true.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Disagreeing with a move doesn't mean I think it's a big deal.
Very very true. But when one or actually more come in and say its not a big deal, highlight a few examples and then you go out of your way on more than one occasion to refute those reasons and never state or agree that its not a big deal....it really looks like you in fact do look at it as such, a big deal. Actually, it looks more like one refusing to admit that maybe he was wrong or made too much of an issue out of something.
See, there's a difference between discussing thoughts on a move, and trying to impose your will upon others. Had this merely been a discussion on the move, as I was trying to have, I would state as I had that i'm impartial to it as I don't see it a big deal. They know more than we do about the player, maybe it'll work maybe it wouldn't. I wouldn't go out of my way to refute your opinions with bogus talk of super prospects, and super duper prospects which can't really be discussed or argued. We all know that this is one of the Giants top prospects. Whether you want to call him solid, super, duper, or what was the other one...oh...FANTASTIC...really doesn't matter as at the level they are at (a-ball) its a crap shoot.
Sorry, I know I rub some people the wrong way....but there are many who tell me you seem to look to argue just for the sake of it. I got the sense of that here.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
dickay
Very very true. But when one or actually more come in and say its not a big deal, highlight a few examples and then you go out of your way on more than one occasion to refute those reasons and never state or agree that its not a big deal....it really looks like you in fact do look at it as such, a big deal. Actually, it looks more like one refusing to admit that maybe he was wrong or made too much of an issue out of something.
If all you said was that it wasn't a big deal, I wouldn't have disagreed. I disagreed with the idea that it was somehow an innovative, genius, smart move. In fact, at first, you didn't even say "It's not a big deal." You devised reasons that it was a GOOD move.
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See, there's a difference between discussing thoughts on a move, and trying to impose your will upon others.
I'm not trying to impose my will upon others. Sorry that you feel that way. I'm frankly getting sick and tired of this crap. Why is it that when I state my opinions, and debate the merits of something with someone that disagrees, I'm "trying to impose my will on others"? I can't ever simply discuss and disagree without being accused of that entirely untrue statement, and the same doesn't go for other members of the forum. I'd like to kindly ask you, and others that have made the same "accusation", to stop, and take my opinions just as you would anybody else's - as simply my opinion.
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Had this merely been a discussion on the move, as I was trying to have, I would state as I had that i'm impartial to it as I don't see it a big deal.
As I said above, this is not how you started the discussion off. After a couple posts, you made the statement that you didn't think it was a big deal. At first, you were disagreeing with me saying that it was a bad move.
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They know more than we do about the player, maybe it'll work maybe it wouldn't.
Yep, and it's my opinion that it won't. So what?
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I wouldn't go out of my way to refute your opinions with bogus talk of super prospects, and super duper prospects which can't really be discussed or argued. We all know that this is one of the Giants top prospects. Whether you want to call him solid, super, duper, or what was the other one...oh...FANTASTIC...really doesn't matter as at the level they are at (a-ball) its a crap shoot.
I don't even know where you're going with this, except that it's pretty immature. The talk of the "super prospects" was just to show the instances of where such a decision IS a good decision. I think it's fine to call up a prospect early if he's a top-of-the-line prospect, a huge talent, a consensus top-10 prospect in the game, a guy that did well in the minors. I think it's silly to call up a prospect and waste a 40 man roster slot on a good prospect that hasn't shown much in the minors.
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Sorry, I know I rub some people the wrong way....but there are many who tell me you seem to look to argue just for the sake of it. I got the sense of that here.
I posted a thread saying that I think this was a silly move. You come playing devil's advocate, and I'm the one looking to argue just for the sake of it? :rolleyes:
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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I'm not trying to impose my will upon others. Sorry that you feel that way. I'm frankly getting sick and tired of this crap. Why is it that when I state my opinions, and debate the merits of something with someone that disagrees, I'm "trying to impose my will on others"? I can't ever simply discuss and disagree without being accused of that entirely untrue statement, and the same doesn't go for other members of the forum. I'd like to kindly ask you, and others that have made the same "accusation", to stop, and take my opinions just as you would anybody else's - as simply my opinion.
Maybe rather than blame everyone else, try to look in a mirror?
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If all you said was that it wasn't a big deal, I wouldn't have disagreed. I disagreed with the idea that it was somehow an innovative, genius, smart move. In fact, at first, you didn't even say "It's not a big deal." You devised reasons that it was a GOOD move.
You are correct. :rolleyes: After you attacking him for this bozo move I was trying to reason as to maybe why he would do it. However, prior to you checking back in, I did post this which pretty much clarified my position for you. IN FACT, your next post highlight this post here below...meaning at no time did you have any reason to believe I was in fact calling him an 'innovator' and that I supported the move.
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I'm playin devils advocate here....I"m not supporting the move, but am not attacking it either. I think it fair to say that there are some players that could greatly benefit from a taste in the show early in their development.
After stating I'm neither for or against it, you posted this here below, which is really a bunch of nonsense that can not be substantiated in any way and extends an argument nobody was making, that this was a good or bad move. Just trying to help you out here big guy, you seem to be getting a little fed up at the reactions you get from others. I understand that at times things get misunderstood, happens to me often too. ;)
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Those players tend to be of the "super prospect" type, like Alex Rodriguez. Conor Gillaspie, while a solid prospect, is far from that level. If you look at the recent list of players that were called up the same year they were drafted, it's full mostly of players that crushed the ball in the minors, like Ryan Zimmerman and Rickie Weeks. Those players also had more of a "pedigree" so to speak, as they were FANTASTIC prospects, and not just very good ones.
And as boomboom said, it starts the arbitration/free agent clock too early, as well as taking up spots on the 40-man roster.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
dickay
Maybe rather than blame everyone else, try to look in a mirror?
Cut it out. I'm continually attacked for giving my opinions, particularly when they disagree with people, and it results in unfair accusations like the one you're making against me that I am somehow trying to "impose my beliefs" on people regarding a minor league call-up. :rolleyes:
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You are correct. :rolleyes: After you attacking him for this bozo move I was trying to reason as to maybe why he would do it. However, prior to you checking back in, I did post this which pretty much clarified my position for you. IN FACT, your next post highlight this post here below...meaning at no time did you have any reason to believe I was in fact calling him an 'innovator' and that I supported the move.
I'm sorry, but this paragraph confused the hell out of me.
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After stating I'm neither for or against it, you posted this here below, which is really a bunch of nonsense that can not be substantiated in any way and extends an argument nobody was making, that this was a good or bad move.
I was responding specifically to this:
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I think it fair to say that there are some players that could greatly benefit from a taste in the show early in their development.
stating that the players that tend to benefit from a taste in the show early in their development tend to be guys in the highest rung of prospects.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?...=.jsp&c_id=mlb
The Giants called up their first round pick of this year's draft, Conor Gillaspie.
He hit .269/.352/.344
in ROOKIE ball in 24 games. He's 21 years old. He's a good prospect, but not major league ready. Why are the Giants wasting 40-man roster space on a player that is very unlikely to help them for at least a couple more years?
It's like Sabean went from having a fetish for "experienced veterans" to going crazy with calling up you guys you hit poorly in the low minors to the majors (see Brian Bocock).
Um,GM aren't you the one always arguing that 50 or 100 games isn't a large enough sample size,so 24 Is ?:rolleyes::confused:
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
I think calling up Gillaspie is a dumb move, and further shows Sabean's inability to develop position players, but, taken by itself, it's not a big deal.
Why is it such a dumb move ? From PG Crosschecker:
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Gillaspie furthered his reputation as one of the top hitters in college baseball this spring, hitting .421-10-77 and throwing in eight triples, 16 steals and 36 walks for added measure. He was at his best as the season wore on and hit two home runs and drove in five in the Missouri Valley Conference tournament championship game..... but there seems to be no question that he has the bat speed and hitting skills to hit line drives at all levels
From going through the SFG minors there is no "ready" 3B available & Rohlinger has flunked in an almost small sample size - .103/.133/.207 & is actually better suited to SS/2B.
There other option is playing FA to be Aurilia who is definately NOT going to be their starter in '09.So what if it starts the Arbitration clock ticking IF it shows he can handle the position & be that 3B they need in 09 ? & if he fails in the September call up what will that hurt ? (actually it won't as he will NOT serve the full month as he was CALLED up Post September 1 & thus he becomes a super 2 like Braun last year)
Overall you are more criticizing Sabean because of his other PAST decisions (& MOREOVER when was GM in another organization with OTHER aims) BUT this year he has done a reasonable job & has found some of his FUTURE players - Burriss has been good with a "nice" .276 BA & has shown he can handle SS,also the pen has found nice players in Hinshaw/Matos/Romo & some of the other rookies have had honourable mentions - power from Bowker/Sandoval has shown he is ready with a .350 BA at 21 years old.....
SFG has done "bad" this year but not as bad as some writers/analysts & posters (INCLUDING myself) predicted,WHO all predicted they would be LAST but they aren't.
Lastly:
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
[B]further shows Sabean's inability to develop position players
Um Sabean doesn't DEVELOP players' he trades for them or draft's them IT IS the coaches that develop players' AS WELL as the players' themselves,who just well develop or don't but DEFINATELY not Sabean....
If anything HE has aided the Giants' this year BY not trading for Stop gap "AAAA" players & forced the organization to look ACTIVELY if their minors could/can handle MLB play - some have panned (see above),some have not (your Bocock example but also Horwitz or Timpner) BUT at least they are putting these guys UNDER REAL life action not "simulated" fire.
He even went further by dealing this year's starting 3B to the Astros (I think) in order to further scrutinize next YEAR'S 3B options - Sandoval/Gillaspie BEFORE the season ends & their PLAY will decide if the Giants play the 3B FA market - if anything pretty shrewd move in a lost season & may save the Giants' 10's OF MILLIONS of dollars if Either/both actually have a good/great September.
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Originally Posted by
FRENCHREDSOX
Um,GM aren't you the one always arguing that 50 or 100 games isn't a large enough sample size,so 24 Is ?:rolleyes::confused:
Never said that.
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There other option is playing FA to be Aurilia who is definately NOT going to be their starter in '09.
And they're definitely not going to make the playoffs this year, so why not play Aurilia there the rest of the season, and then see what Gillaspie does in spring training before deciding whether or not to put him on the 40 man roster, tying up a spot when he very well may not be ready?
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Um Sabean doesn't DEVELOP players' he trades for them or draft's them IT IS the coaches that develop players' AS WELL as the players' themselves who just well develop....
Sabean and his front office makes the decisions on who to trade for and draft and who to put in charge of the on-field development. They've done a good job with pitchers. They've done a horrible job with position players. The last major league regular developed by them was Bill Mueller.
I'd urge anybody interested in this particular call-up to read the comments on the Baseball Think Factory link I posted above, and I'll re-link it here.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Never said that.
No YOU NEVER said it but implied it in your very 1st post by quoting his R-Ball stats rather than use the MUCH larger sample College stats (WHICH shows he a top class/advanced hitter).
I was simply showing that the stats sample size is very,very small to judge by & even if he was hitting 0.500/0.600/1.100 I would say the same...
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
And they're definitely not going to make the playoffs this year, so why not play Aurilia there the rest of the season, and then see what Gillaspie does in spring training before deciding whether or not to put him on the 40 man roster, tying up a spot when he very well may not be ready?
Because as I said in the post & Will re post,1
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.So what if it starts the Arbitration clock ticking IF it shows he can handle the position & be that 3B they need in 09 ? & if he fails in the September call up what will that hurt ? (actually it won't as he will NOT serve the full month as he was CALLED up Post September 1 & thus he becomes a super 2 like Braun last year)
& also 2:
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by dealing this year's starting 3B to the Astros (I think) in order to further scrutinize next YEAR'S 3B options - Sandoval/Gillaspie BEFORE the season ends & their PLAY will decide if the Giants play the 3B FA market - if anything pretty shrewd move in a lost season & may save the Giants' 10's OF MILLIONS of dollars if Either/both actually have a good/great September.
The latter is called Financial viability & also it is logical to SEE if a player can handle the pressure/position at MLB BEFORE the Hot Stove - the other way round is
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
see what Gillaspie does in spring training before deciding may not be ready?
now that is illogical BECAUSE Spring is after FA signing period & thus the decision would be based on unknown information....see what I mean ?
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Sabean and his front office makes the decisions on who to trade for and draft and who to put in charge of the on-field development. They've done a good job with pitchers. They've done a horrible job with position players. The last major league regular developed by them was Bill Mueller.
Since 1997 when he was hired Sabean has over viewed 10 drafts - results as you say have been varied but very similar to MOST large organizations who use FA to build upon,below with in parentheses those still with the team:
1998 Draft 7 have become MLBers
1999 3 (Taschner still with SFG)
2000 8 (Threets 7th rounder)
2001 6 (Hennessy,Lowry)
2002 6 (Cain,Lewis who is their LF starter,Ortmeier,Correia)
2003 7 (Wilson 24th rnd,Misch,Sadler)
2004 4 (Bowker who is their 1B,Timpner,Frandsen,Sanchez 27th!)
2005 2 (Hinshaw 15th,Romo 28th)
2006 3 (Lincecum,Rohlinger,Bocock)
2007 0
2008 1 (Gillaspie)
I don't doubt that Sabean has faults but he plays with the cards MacGowan deals him (cash/Aims eg Bonds' era) but his drafting has not been as bad as some stated & this year he has definately changed strategy (post Bonds) & promoted "youth" in order to be better in 09/10 ;)
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
FRENCHREDSOX
No YOU NEVER said it but implied it in your very 1st post by quoting his R-Ball stats rather than use the MUCH larger sample College stats (WHICH shows he a top class/advanced hitter).
College stats give very little to no indication about how a player will hit in any professional league, particularly the majors.
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Since 1997 when he was hired Sabean has over viewed 10 drafts - results as you say have been varied but very similar to MOST large organizations who use FA to build upon,below with in parentheses those still with the team:
1998 Draft 7 have become MLBers
1999 3 (Taschner still with SFG)
2000 8 (Threets 7th rounder)
2001 6 (Hennessy,Lowry)
2002 6 (Cain,Lewis who is their LF starter,Ortmeier,Correia)
2003 7 (Wilson 24th rnd,Misch,Sadler)
2004 4 (Bowker who is their 1B,Timpner,Frandsen,Sanchez 27th!)
2005 2 (Hinshaw 15th,Romo 28th)
2006 3 (Lincecum,Rohlinger,Bocock)
2007 0
2008 1 (Gillaspie)
I'm not sure what this list is supposed to prove. It certainly doesn't prove that the Giants have developed any solid major league position players.
Anyway, whatever. I guess I'll just never criticize or disagree with any decision by any front office because general managers are infallible and always make the right decision. :rolleyes:
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Just to resumé this (from MLB.com):
Quote:
Bobby Evans, the Giants' director of player personnel, explained Gillaspie's promotion by citing the left-handed batter's offensive potential and the team's void at third base, where no certain regular is penciled in for 2009. Moreover, the list of potential free-agent third basemen is headed by injury-plagued veterans such as Joe Crede and Hank Blalock and 35-year-old Casey Blake.
"We have some decisions to make this offseason," Evans said. "Having a chance to evaluate [Gillaspie] at this level is very important."
Gillaspie, the 37th overall selection in the Draft, hit a combined .269 with no home runs and 15 RBIs in 24 games for the Giants' Rookie-level Arizona League affiliate and short-season Salem-Keizer. But Evans indicated that Gillaspie's potential transcended those statistics.
"I think [with] the bat ... every staff person who has seen him come through Arizona and Salem has been very impressed," Evans said. "And he plays a key position for us right now. He's in the right place at the right time."
Said Gillaspie, who'll report to the Giants' instructional-league camp in Arizona after the regular season ends, "It's more of a learning experience for me to be up here."
Asked about comparisons made between Gillaspie and former Giants third baseman Bill Mueller, Evans said that Gillaspie is more offensively advanced than Mueller was at the same stage, although Mueller was more polished defensively.
& without being a critique doesn't a professional baseball organisation know something about players' they see 24/24 & 7/7 since they signed for X million(s) & have scouted BEFORE numerous times?
I mean they brought him up,not to sell tickets, BUT because they think he will be an asset in 09 & in the future ....
Did they do wrong bringing up Sandoval ? Or Burriss or isn't September THE TIME teams' who aren't in the playoffs cameo players for the following season ?
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
French....will you stop making all kinds of sense for crying out loud. :rolleyes:
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
dickay
French....will you stop making all kinds of sense for crying out loud. :rolleyes:
:D:p
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
FRENCHREDSOX
Just to resumé this (from MLB.com):
& without being a critique doesn't a professional baseball organisation know something about players' they see 24/24 & 7/7 since they signed for X million(s) & have scouted BEFORE numerous times?
Fine, major league organizations are infallible and can never make wrong or stupid decisions, as evidenced by the fact that whenever I disagree with a decision they make, inevitably, you or dickay (usually) immediately have to tell me why I'm wrong and the front office is right. Always. Front offices are infallible. :rolleyes:
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Did they do wrong bringing up Sandoval ? Or Burriss or isn't September THE TIME teams' who aren't in the playoffs cameo players for the following season ?
Sandoval has been in the minors for 4 years. This year he showed significant improvement, raking in High-A before being promoted to AA, where he continued to rake, all as a 21 year old. Such a rapid ascent and strong performance for his age deserves a promotion. Beyond that, he's starting to near the professional service time where he must be protected on the 40 man roster or be subject to the Rule V draft. Burriss is 23 already and a defense/speed-first player.
Neither have parallels with Gillaspie, who is in his first professional season, and as a 20 year old, hit poorly in Rookie/Low-A.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Quote:
Fine, major league organizations are infallible and can never make wrong or stupid decisions, as evidenced by the fact that whenever I disagree with a decision they make, inevitably, you or dickay (usually) immediately have to tell me why I'm wrong and the front office is right. Always. Front offices are infallible.
Really kid, you have issues. Where did I tell you that you were wrong and the office was right??? I stated that I was playing devils advocate and mentioning reasons WHY they may have made the decision they made. Why do you see this as a horrific move and refuse to see any of the common sense reasons as to why they may want to make this move??? Again, you must have some inside information and know more about this kid than the Giants, thats the only thing that makes any sense to me.
Stop putting words in my mouth. It really sounds more like you have a hard on for Sabean, want to find fault in anything he does, and are upset others don't necessarily agree with you. I don't know enough about Sabeans history to say yeah or nay....I do know that this move is not that big a deal and I can understand why he did it although I can understand that it may be a risk.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
dickay
Where did I tell you that you were wrong and the office was right??? I stated that I was playing devils advocate and mentioning reasons WHY they may have made the decision they made.
Than perhaps it's your tone.
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Why do you see this as a horrific move and refuse to see any of the common sense reasons as to why they may want to make this move???
I don't. I disagree with the move.
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Again, you must have some inside information and know more about this kid than the Giants, thats the only thing that makes any sense to me.
And that's the tone I'm talking about.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Than perhaps it's your tone.
Perhaps :rolleyes:
Or perhaps you are making the assumptions you are so quickly blaming others of making. :rolleyes:
My stance was crystal clear....this has gotten out of hand for such a rediculously trivial issue. Perhaps you should review your tone and why you garner such resentment at times. :(
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
dickay
Perhaps :rolleyes:
Or perhaps you are making the assumptions you are so quickly blaming others of making. :rolleyes:
Assumptions which, no doubt, are largely influenced by the tone you're using. So, if those assumptions are wrong, I'd suggest perhaps using a different tone so that you're not misunderstood.
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My stance was crystal clear....
Not quite. Not at first.
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this has gotten out of hand for such a rediculously trivial issue.
Agreed.
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Perhaps you should review your tone and why you garner such resentment at times. :(
Because, clearly, I'm the only person using an argumentative tone, and the only instigator in this thread. :rolleyes:
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
No, you are right...continue blaming everyone else for every argument you get into. :rolleyes:
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Fine, major league organizations are infallible and can never make wrong or stupid decisions, as evidenced by the fact that whenever I disagree with a decision they make, inevitably, you or dickay (usually) immediately have to tell me why I'm wrong and the front office is right. Always. Front offices are infallible. :rolleyes:
Nope never said that - if front offices were infallibl,it would be known I promise & then a) ALL teams would be 81-81 teams b) GMs would never lose their jobs & c) all Draftees would be superstars in descending order from their draft pick order.
All I pointed out was that :
1) Sabean & his co workers (scouts,managers,development personnel) made a decision not solely based on 24 games but the totality of needs/potential & future needs &
2) it was a "no lose" decision as either Gillaspie (or Sandoval) show they can handle the 3B role & save the Giants' millions in FA or they couldn't & thus pre empting the Giants' future course in the offseason. Either way it could only be achieved by a September call up in this case.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Sandoval has been in the minors for 4 years. This year he showed significant improvement, raking in High-A before being promoted to AA, where he continued to rake, all as a 21 year old. Such a rapid ascent and strong performance for his age deserves a promotion.
Really ? From AA to MLB ? Or was it another decision to "see" what could be the Giants' C/1B/3B of the future ? There are tens of players' who had similar seasons BUT didn't get the call,why ? Because the needs of those organisations were different from the Giants....
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Beyond that, he's starting to near the professional service time where he must be protected on the 40 man roster or be subject to the Rule V draft.
According to MLB rules as a signee under the age of 19 he needn't be put on the 40 man roster till 5 full years of minor service time (eg end of 2009 season) so there was no hurry to bring him up/40 man him or even worry about Rule V till December 2009 at the very earliest.
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Burriss is 23 already and a defense/speed-first player.
So ? He was called up when Vizquel went down & has played (like Bocock) to see if he was/is MLB ready for 09 & beyond...without playing NO ONE could predict (not you/me or BP or PECOTA or ZiPs) his actual fine play with the bat or on a daily basis.
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Originally Posted by
HoustonGM
Neither have parallels with Gillaspie, who is in his first professional season, and as a 20 year old, hit poorly in Rookie/Low-A.
24 games! PS he is 21 - DOB 06/18/87
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
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Originally Posted by
FRENCHREDSOX
doesn't a professional baseball organisation know something about players' they see 24/24 & 7/7 since they signed for X million(s) & have scouted BEFORE numerous times?
One would hope so, but sometimes one's hopes only end in disappointment.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FRENCHREDSOX
Really ? From AA to MLB ?
Nowadays, it's not at all uncommon for top prospects to skip AAA entirely. AAA is used mostly as a place to stash players in case of injury at the major league level.
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Or was it another decision to "see" what could be the Giants' C/1B/3B of the future ?
Both.
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There are
tens of players' who had similar seasons BUT didn't get the call,why ? Because the needs of those organisations were different from the Giants....
Okay.
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According to MLB rules as a signee under the age of 19 he needn't be put on the 40 man roster till 5 full years of minor service time (eg end of 2009 season) so there was no hurry to bring him up/40 man him or even worry about Rule V till December 2009 at the very earliest.
I said he was nearing it, not at it.
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24 games! PS he is 21 - DOB 06/18/87
This is his "age 20" season.
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Re: What the hell is Sabean doing?
Another Houston being Houston thread I see
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
filihok
Another Houston being Houston thread I see
Yeah, of course.
:rolleyes:
Everything is my fault.
Would you all prefer that I just NEVER post ANY opinions whatsoever, and never disagree or debate? I'm sick of the blatant hypocrisy. When I disagree and/or give my opinion, I'm somehow being an ass and trying to force my will upon others. When others disagree and/or give their opinion, it's just normal discussion.
Oh, and it's also funny how there are numerous forum members that I can have a debate with, and disagree with completely, and it's all just a fine civil discussion, and then there's a couple forum members that have to accuse me of crap and be excessively argumentative whenever they disagree with me on something (or in the case of this thread, just feel like playing devil's advocate. And again, I'm the one looking for the argument just for the sake of it. :rolleyes:)
