Yankee Bashing

Oriole^ - You still have not proven your point though. Your team is still a large payroll team that underperforms year after year. If Tampa Bay wins the ALCS you will hate them too I suppose. How can you sit there and blame other teams? Baltimore has had every opportunity to be good. Nick Markakis is going to be an incredible player. I bet Baltmore trades him within 2 years for a crap pitcher and crap crap and crap.

I really hope the Red Sox win a couple more just to absorb the blow of hatred of shitty teams.

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Originally Posted by grasshopper

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Well, you are right about one thing...I'm certainly not going to get my point across. :rolleyes:

Conversation over.

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Originally Posted by oriole^

Whenever they need to patch a hole, or deal with a rough stretch, they open up the vault, and out pops a Damon or a Mussina or a Clemens or a Matsui or a Cone or an O'Neill or a Pudge Rodriguez.

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Clemens, Cone, Pudge, and O'Neill were originally acquired in a trade, where, yes, money plays a role, but it's far from the only determining factor. Also, I bet I can for most teams, name 3 good free agents and 4 good players acquired in trades in the last 15 or so years.

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No need to wait for anything to develop, or cross your fingers that the new kid from AAA will learn to hit a curve ball by May.

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Hm...so what was relying on a rotation with Ian Kennedy, Phil Hughes, and Joba Chamberlain called?

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The Yankees win because they buy other teams' star players. Period.

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Incorrect. Which "star players" have the Yankees "bought" recently? Look at all these past winning Yankee teams. Guess what? A large portion of the rosters are homegrown. Sometimes theres a free agent or two that plays a major role, but that's the exception, not the rule. The Yankees have largely been built on homegrown players and shrewd trading. Yes, of course, the money gives them an advantage, but it's far from the sole reason for their success, and thinking otherwise is just willingly ignoring the many other reasons.

JayC said it pretty well here.

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Originally Posted by JayC

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Originally Posted by oriole^

Even if they miss it, they'll do the usual Yankees' manuever: wait for the MVP of the Series to be named, or the free agent that's been tearing them up to come onto the market, and buy them.

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Remind me again... when's the last time that "usual Yankees maneuver" happened?

The fact is, though, that the Yankees will be dropping a lot of payroll after this season and Hank Steinbrenner has said that they intend to spend some of what they'll be recovering to address a couple of weakness. So while it hasn't been the "Yankee maneuver" in years, yes, that's basically the plan this year.

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Sorry, oriole^, your complaints are unfounded.

Yeah, the Yankees have been good for 15 years and have not had to rebuild much. The same can be said for the Braves until recently. It also looks like the Yankees are about to be at that point as well. There will be a time when the Yankees suck again. There always is.

(AND: I am not a Yankee fan. I like to see them lose, usually. I'm just being realistic.)

If money was the only thing that decided who won and lost...the Marlins and Rays (last and 2nd to last in payroll) and Diamondbacks (in the botttom 3rd) wouldn't be contending. The Tigers, Braves, and Mariners would all be better. Etc.

Peace. Its good to talk with another real baseball fan. Aint much of those these days.

Have a good night.

That was for Oriole^ btw. Houston, what did you just come online and start battering? I was trying to be civil.

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Originally Posted by grasshopper

That was for Oriole^ btw. Houston, what did you just come online and start battering? I was trying to be civil.

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Excuse me? How am I not being civil?

Oh, ha. In that case, have a horrible night!

I kid, I kid.

Exactly! LOL

Also, I agree with oriole^ regarding the attitude of many Yankee fans, and the superiority complex many of them show.

I just don't think the Yankees only win because of their money, and I don't think they go out and "buy" every star that hits the market....because....that's not true.

Houston, we have had this one out. No fans are better or worse. Just the fact that the Yankees success is not luck. Just good planning and financials. Like someone said earlier, everyone now hates the Patriots. Do you remember hating them before 2002? Did they really exist?

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Originally Posted by grasshopper

Houston, we have had this one out. No fans are better or worse.

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Never said that.

[quote]Just the fact that the Yankees success is not luck.[quote]
Never said it was.

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Just good planning and financials.

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I think that's exactly what I said, with emphasis on the "good planning" part, as financials AREN'T the whole of it, as some of oriole^'s statements seem to suggest.

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Like someone said earlier, everyone now hates the Patriots. Do you remember hating them before 2002? Did they really exist?

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I don't know. Never followed football.

I'm really confused right now. It seems like I agree with you, but you're taking offense to my comments and calling me uncivil, when I've said nothing in regards to anything you've said, nor was I responding to oriole^ in an uncivil manner.

Sorry. Never called you uncivil. We were winding down on Baltimore and you rolled in and plastered it on the wall again. They suck. All my NY-MD diplomacy went out the window. LOL.

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Like someone said earlier, everyone now hates the Patriots. Do you remember hating them before 2002? Did they really exist?

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I said that. :p lol

I don't think so...


Uh. I dunno. I'm pretty confused right now, so, let's drop it, lol?

No worries.

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I said that.

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You damn right. Go Ducks!!!!

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Originally Posted by grasshopper

You damn right. Go Ducks!!!!

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Hell yeah, Go Ducks!!!!

Beat USC!!

Houston, the whole point of the thread was defending the Yankees. I am sick of it. That is all. Why should you have to defend a winner?

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Originally Posted by grasshopper

Houston, the whole point of the thread was defending the Yankees.

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And...I was "defending" them as well...in that many of the complaints people use against them aren't really valid.

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I am sick of it. That is all. Why should you have to defend a winner?

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Because fans are generally irrational and will hate "rivals" or other teams for any reason at all, and often times the "frontrunner" will be "hated on" the most just for always winning...and none of that's going to stop, as long as fans remain irrational, which is going to be the case forever.

Damn tootin!

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Originally Posted by grasshopper

Enough with Yankee bashing. I understand why everyone hates the Yanks, but take a look at your own team.

To start - Boston, Philly, Chicago, San Fran, and especially LA all have huge population bases. So this is not an excuse. Next time you are at work, ask a random fellow employee when they were last at a local ballgame. I know for the Yanks it is a high response. I know for LA it is low.

When you travel around the world, even some random place, what do you see? Yankees caps (and now Red Sox). Hmmm. I guess this is because they suck so bad.

In your TV market, does your team have its own channel? Well shucks, Steinbrunner was the first guy to set up his own baseball network and it is now equal to almost half the value of the team. What an idiot.

So basically selling your team to a large market, having loyal fans and winning are bad. Go cry on someone elses pillow.

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I take it as a sign of respect, GH....I'll bet that most none-Romans wrote posts, ranting about that Empire, of yore; think-bubbles of hatred toward the Brit "Commonwealth" could be seen floating about during its glory years; there have been mutterings of discontent heard about the American international conglomerate of today...man, it's tough at the top!.....

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Originally Posted by grasshopper

No, just fed up. Just spent an evening with a bunch of friends who are Mets fans. Mets fans are probably the worst of all. Sick and tired of Yankees fans being tagged as bad fans.

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no BOSTON and Philly are worse.

I LOVE sports radio and you would think boson was the best team ever to play the sport... and philly fans act like they are the best in the NL... try making it to whe WS in the last 20+ years then brag... You hear me saying my Braves are better than you, NO. because they are not in 1st place and hav not won.

But I do hate th yankees and it give me great pleasure to watch them suffer as we did in the 90's BECAUSE of your team :p

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Originally Posted by Rongar

I take it as a sign of respect, GH....I'll bet that most none-Romans wrote posts, ranting about that Empire, of yore; think-bubbles of hatred toward the Brit "Commonwealth" could be seen floating about during its glory years; there have been mutterings of discontent heard about the American international conglomerate of today...man, it's tough at the top!.....

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Well said. If the Yankees weren't so good nobody would even care about them. There's not to many people out their who hate Pittsburgh. I can understand how listening to people constantly bash your team can be annoying but it's better than not talking about them at all. I hate the Cubs because they are in 1st place and constantly kicking our asses. Before Milwaukee went to the national league I hated the White Sox. I hate all the Chicago teams. It's the regional rivalry. If your a Packer fan you hate Bears, If your a Cubs fan you hate St. Louis, If your a Yankee fan you hate the Sox. Thats just how it goes.

Long live Rome and Italy!

my hatred for the Yankees started at birth.

Same here Cartman

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Because fans are generally irrational

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Oh Hi I just woke up....did someone call me?

Go Yankees!

Go Red Sox!

Go Rockies!

go Braves :(

Go Ducks!

Oooo. Thanks. I've been wondering what to call the expansion Portland team.
Portland Quacks!

Okay, I can get into this as a thread.

How 'bout them O's, hon? :-)

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Sorry, oriole^, your complaints are unfounded.

Yeah, the Yankees have been good for 15 years and have not had to rebuild much. The same can be said for the Braves until recently. It also looks like the Yankees are about to be at that point as well. There will be a time when the Yankees suck again. There always is.

(AND: I am not a Yankee fan. I like to see them lose, usually. I'm just being realistic.)

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I really, really should leave this alone...but frankly, it's weighing on me a bit. There's this perception that I'm in this thread and saying what I'm saying because I'm a homer and don't like the Yankees. Well, okay, that last part is true, but if that was the only thing going on here, I'd just say, "Go O's, beat Yanks!"...which I just essentially did.

But the point in posting in the first place was that there isn't any Yankee "mystique" - whether you like it or not, and whether you think it's justified or "good" or not, the Yankees are where they are because of their payroll and how they manage players - specifically that they buy a great many talented free agents, beyond the reach of many other teams. Now HoustonGM and the rest know their baseball here, and I don't mean to say anyone doesn't. But there's a record to baseball, and it can be reviewed, and if what I said wasn't borne out, I'd just chalk it up to the beer and say to heck with it. So I did check the record; I'm still working on it, in fact, as I'm going back to 1980. And some patterns are emerging - enough for me to say that no, HoustonGM, my complaints are quite founded, and you are demonstrably wrong on this one.

Here's what is emerging:

The Yankees are not especially "shrewd traders". They have some very good trades and some very bad ones, and most are somewhere in the middle. Some of the players they rely on for their success (Paul O'Neill, etc.) came in a trade. This is not especially different from any other team. The Yankees do make a great deal of trades, which changes the character of their team fairly quickly, but they aren't all good and they aren't all bad.

Many of the Yankees' so-called "shrewd trades" are actually salary dumps by small-market teams and rent-a-player deals. There are a bunch of real fleecings on the record, but they aren't of the traditional type where one player tanks and the other becomes a star; they're just simple admissions that the player in question can't be afforded by any team other than the Yankees, so we'll send him there for a paycheck and cut our losses.

Example: Jack McDowell from the White Sox to the Yankees for a minor leaguer and the ever-popular player to be named later (Lyle Mouton, in this case; 1995). A plain ol' rental. McDowell, making $5 million at the time and two years removed from winning the Cy Young, leads the Yankees in ERA that season and is sent off as a Free Agent at the end, signing with the Indians in the off-season for less money. The Yanks lose to the Mariners in the off-season; his disappointing performance there may have had something to do with it.

Example: Raul Mondesi to the Yankees for Scott Wiggins (2003). Wiggins pitches three innings for the Blue Jays in his short career; Mondesi and his $11 million salary are off their books, causing the Jays to breathe a sigh of relief and pick up some very cheap Free Agents (Frank Catalonotto, Mike Bordick, etc.) and do a quick rebuild around some emerging stars. The Yanks, of course, have no real trouble with Mondesi's contract; he hits 11 HRs for them down the stretch and in the post-season against Anaheim. Mondesi's salary jumps $2 million with the Yankees and goes down $12 million(!) when he leaves a year later.

I mentioned the "common Yankee manuever" of picking up a veteran for the stretch run and got nay-sayed for it...well, it exists. Many "trades" are exactly these; usually it's a veteran pitcher for a ham sandwich when it's clear they'll be leaving anyway. So...John Montefusco, Doyle Alexander, Joe Niekro, David Wells. The aforementioned Mondesi was another, though of the non-pitcher variety, as was Aaron Boone (an emergent All-Star traded for a duff pitcher and a minor leaguer, shortly after his salary jumped) and many others. This isn't unique to the Yankees of course, except that they do it much more frequently than any other team.

The Yankees pick up, on average, one Free Agent All-Star per season. Again, I haven't run through all the record; it may be .9 or something. I'll post the full list (as I was asked to back myself up) later. I'm defining "All-Star" as one who was an All-Star or in line for a major award (MVP, Cy Young, Rookie of the Year) in one of the two seasons before (or after, but I haven't found one of those yet) he became a Yankee. This essentially is the "line up the teams and pick the best guy" scenario I described before.

In fact, there's a very interesting trend to note. There's one period where the Yankees didn't do this: the mid-1980s. Several FAs came to town, but they were mostly role players grabbed to fill holes, much the same way that any other team would do; Gary Ward is the only real exception (1987). The Yankees tanked in 1989, and stayed that way through 1992 - the only real extended period where they did so in the last 50 years or so. Then it was back to signing All-Stars as fast as they could: Wade Boggs, Danny Tartabull, Jimmy Key, Mike Witt...by 1995, they were back in the playoffs; by 1996, they won it all.

Read that again for me. The one time in the past 30 years that the Yankees didn't buy Free Agent All-Stars, competitive balance takes over and they lose. The instant they go back to it, they win.

(The other thing to point out here is that not every team does this - not nearly to this extent. Granted, it would take more study, but I'm putting that out there as an exercise left to the reader...we're talking about, in any given off-season, one of the top eight or so Free Agents going to one team, the same team, every time. It can't really be duplicated easily by any other team, though the Angels and Red Sox are tryin' hard. In fact, this aspect is the main difference between the Yankees and any average team.)

Sorry for being a hard-ass about this one, Houston, but I was essentially told that I was full of applesauce when I could back myself up - and I just did.

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Originally Posted by OregonDuck1989

Go Ducks!

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Go Beavers!

Yankees suck! Yankees suck!

It had to be said...

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Originally Posted by metsguy234

Yankees suck! Yankees suck!

It had to be said...

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Let's Go Red Sox!

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Originally Posted by twinsGM

Let's Go Red Sox!

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Let's go Red Sox! Let's go Mets!