11.25 Payroll differs on expense dialog and finance page [Fixed 12.11]

Rounding error

I can actually -almost- believe that.

If it is a rounding error then I still think it needs to be worked on. As noted in this previous example, the error caused team payroll to be underpaid by about $3,000,000. Which is 3%. Which is a DAMN BIG rounding error.

Recursive rounding...
And, from what I can see, it's only a display issue. The money is actually accounted for, it's simply not displayed correctly.

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showpos...5&postcount=38

From this post (again) I don't see how that can be

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You can also see that it is not just a display error. I set my beginning cash to 0. Revenue of 108,048,781 - 25,000,000 is not equal to 83,202,456. The cash number comes from the incorrect (in my opinion) subtraction of the $24,806,325.

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filihok, I for one can follow your logic exactly. I don't think it is a display error either.

It is not likely rounding. For one thing if it was traditional rounding then the errors would be minimized over many computations and tend to be close to the actual. Secondly, if it was a traditional rounding error, we should see discrepancies in BOTH directions. It does not matter in your example whether you work with the sum of individual salaries or the gross. It is tough to get that far off. Try it.

It may be that the program simply drops the last digit that it carries (integer function). This would tend to produce results in only one direction. Even so, 1,000,000 divided by 162 = 6172.8395 per game. Please note that you will not be able to drop digits to be able to calc a number close to 24,846,325.

6170 is too much, 6100 is too little. Interesting that the number required to be multiplied by 162 and get 24,846,325 is almost exactly halfway between 6100 & 6170...being 6134.8951.

Now if you run your same simulation paying the players 10,000,000 each will the payroll be off by the same percentage - meaning it will report payroll of 248,463,250, or close to it? I think that if it is off by the same percentage then the program could not be using the same placeholder to round, and therefore it cannot be rounding.

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Originally Posted by pirate66

filihok, I for one can follow your logic exactly. I don't think it is a display error either.

It is not likely rounding. For one thing if it was traditional rounding then the errors would be minimized over many computations and tend to be close to the actual. Secondly, if it was a traditional rounding error, we should see discrepancies in BOTH directions. It does not matter in your example whether you work with the sum of individual salaries or the gross. It is tough to get that far off. Try it.

It may be that the program simply drops the last digit that it carries (integer function). This would tend to produce results in only one direction. Even so, 1,000,000 divided by 162 = 6172.8395 per game. Please note that you will not be able to drop digits to be able to calc a number close to 24,846,325.

6170 is too much, 6100 is too little. Interesting that the number required to be multiplied by 162 and get 24,846,325 is almost exactly halfway between 6100 & 6170...being 6134.8951.

Now if you run your same simulation paying the players 10,000,000 each will the payroll be off by the same percentage - meaning it will report payroll of 248,463,250, or close to it? I think that if it is off by the same percentage then the program could not be using the same placeholder to round, and therefore it cannot be rounding.

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Yoo-Hoo...so I'm not totally crazy.

It seems so glaring. I keep expecting somebody to point out something that I'm overlooking, but...

I didn't go back and check this with your earlier examples, but with your $25 million payroll, I found a way to get $24,846,325.

$1,000,000 / 163 games = $6134.969 -- rounded down to $6134.9

$6134.90 * 162 games = $993,853.80 -- rounded down to $993,853

$993,853 * 25 players = $24,846,325


By the way, $25,000,000 * 162 / 163 = $24,846,625.77 , which is only $300 off of $24,846,325.

Interesting...good work

Maybe Clay typed a 3 where he should have typed a 2?

I'll take a look at this when I get a chance

Actually, better yet

25,000,000/163 = 153,374.233
Round to: 153,374.23
Multiply by 162
=24,846,325.3
Round to: 24,846,325 which = THIS

I think you may be on to something

I look forward to trying this on another couple examples

Ok...so the formula in post #49 doesn't work if you add minor league players.

In a test I just did, I added a minor league player making $75 million.

After playing the season I should have had a total salary paid of:
100,000,000/163 = 613,496.9325...
Round to: 613,496.93
Multiply by 162
=99,386,502.66
Round to: 99,386,503

I actually got a total salary paid of: 99,383,368

We know that the 25 guys making 1,000,000 each total to 24,846,325 so the $75 mil player must have made 99,383,368-24,846,325 = 74,537,043

Which is 74,537,043/75,000,000 = .99382724

Who can figure out the significance of THIS number? I'll get to work on it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

Actually, better yet

25,000,000/163 = 153,374.233
Round to: 153,374.23
Multiply by 162
=24,846,325.3
Round to: 24,846,325 which = THIS

I think you may be on to something

I look forward to trying this on another couple examples

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Not that it matters much, but 153,374.23 * 162 = 24,846,625

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Originally Posted by tywiggins

Not that it matters much, but 153,374.23 * 162 = 24,846,625

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SOB...lol...thanx, I was all excited. I thought I had an exact match...

But wait, you had an exact match...lemme try something

Nope...So it looked like we had it figured out and that it was a rounding error and a division by 163 instead of 162.

What I did for this test was add a minor league player with a salary of $75,000,000 leaving the team with a $100,000,000 payroll.

After 162 games only 99,363,368 was paid out.

The 163 games and rounding as described HERE doesn't work out. That leads to a payroll of: 99,386,503

If we assume that the major league players (whose salaries didn't change) still made 24,846,345 in this example then the minor league player must have made 99,363,368 - 24,846,345 = 74,517,043.

Any ideas how to get to that number? Or how to get to 99,363,368???

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...sc/finance.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

Nope...So it looked like we had it figured out and that it was a rounding error and a division by 163 instead of 162.

What I did for this test was add a minor league player with a salary of $75,000,000 leaving the team with a $100,000,000 payroll.

After 162 games only 99,363,368 was paid out.

The 163 games and rounding as described HERE doesn't work out. That leads to a payroll of: 99,386,503

If we assume that the major league players (whose salaries didn't change) still made 24,846,345 in this example then the minor league player must have made 99,363,368 - 24,846,345 = 74,517,023.

Any ideas how to get to that number? Or how to get to 99,363,368???

http://i496.photobucket.com/albums/r...sc/finance.jpg

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Did you accidentally play a game before you created the minor leaguer?

75,000,000 / 162 = 462962.96
this time round to 462963
462963 * 161 = 74,537,043

No...he was created on April 1st before I simmed the season.

I'm looking for this number: 74,517,023
Not 74,537,043

Unless I'm missing something

Umm.

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Originally Posted by filihok

We know that the 25 guys making 1,000,000 each total to 24,846,325 so the $75 mil player must have made 99,383,368-24,846,325 = 74,537,043

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

If we assume that the major league players (whose salaries didn't change) still made 24,846,345 in this example then the minor league player must have made 99,363,368 - 24,846,345 = 74,517,043.

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Your first quote was right. The numbers in the second quote are all wrong.

You see why my career in finance lasted six months... :)

Ok...so why the hell does the game divide major league players' salaries by 163 and pay by 162 while dividing minor league players' salaries by 161 and pay by 162?

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Originally Posted by filihok

You see why my career in finance lasted six months... :)

Ok...so why the hell does the game divide major league players' salaries by 163 and pay by 162 while dividing minor league players' salaries by 161 and pay by 162?

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Well, my guess is that dividing by an extra game is a mistake in the code.

Also, the difference with your $75 million player may be because you created him after the season started. Try the same experiment but use a player that already exists instead of a new player.

Edit: I just did it and got the exact same amount as you. $99,383,368
I also get the exact same amount when the $75 million player is on the MLB team and the minor leaguer is making $1 million.

I found a much simpler explanation. You don't pay the players for the last game of the season.

Every game (except the last) each player's salary is divided by 162. They are each rounded to the nearest dollar.

So:
$1 million / 162 rounded to the nearest dollar = $6173
$75 million / 162 rounded to the nearest dollar = $462963

$6173 * 25 + $462963 = $617288 per game

$617288 * 161 games = $99,383,368 -- which is what the running total says after both the 161st and 162nd game.
$617288 * 162 games = $100,000,656 -- which is also the projected expenses before the last game is played.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tywiggins

I found a much simpler explanation. You don't pay the players for the last game of the season.

Every game (except the last) each player's salary is divided by 162. They are each rounded to the nearest dollar.

So:
$1 million / 162 rounded to the nearest dollar = $6173
$75 million / 162 rounded to the nearest dollar = $462963

$6173 * 25 + $462963 = $617288 per game

$617288 * 161 games = $99,383,368 -- which is what the running total says after both the 161st and 162nd game.
$617288 * 162 games = $100,000,656 -- which is also the projected expenses before the last game is played.

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BRILLIANT!!!!!

Now does that last game EVER get counted?

All this work for one measly game's worth of salary?! :p Nice work both of you, tracking it down.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

All this work for one measly game's worth of salary?! :p Nice work both of you, tracking it down.

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It was a labor of love on my part-the bane of my Mogul existence since I bought '07. Ty just did all the work. ;)

And no, I just simmed to the next season and the last game's salary never gets removed from cash.

Fixed BM2K10???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by filihok

Which is 74,537,043/75,000,000 = .99382724

Who can figure out the significance of THIS number? I'll get to work on it

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161/162 = .993827

So it would appear that players are only getting paid for 161 games. That could happen if I pay players AFTER games, but they don't get paid after the last game because the code thinks the season is over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tywiggins

I found a much simpler explanation. You don't pay the players for the last game of the season.

Every game (except the last) each player's salary is divided by 162. They are each rounded to the nearest dollar.

So:
$1 million / 162 rounded to the nearest dollar = $6173
$75 million / 162 rounded to the nearest dollar = $462963

$6173 * 25 + $462963 = $617288 per game

$617288 * 161 games = $99,383,368 -- which is what the running total says after both the 161st and 162nd game.
$617288 * 162 games = $100,000,656 -- which is also the projected expenses before the last game is played.

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Yeah, that's what some genius named tywiggins figured out was the problem.

Bump

1/162 * every player on every team for every season of every game started by every user is a lot of money

NOT fixed

http://forum.sportsmogul.com/showthread.php?t=199990

The 161/162 problem is fixed but the game still uses and incorrect amount when deducting payroll expense

Looking into this more, I'm realizing that the difference between the Payroll on the side bar and in the expenses dialogue is why MY calculations are so far off from Mogul's.

In THIS THREAD I showed that the payroll number on the side bar is correct and the number in the expenses dialogue is incorrect and that Mogul incorrectly uses the number from the expenses dialogue.

I'm posting the payroll numbers from the sidebar and from the expenses dialogue (Circled in RED) for each month during my season. You can see that the differences are between 15 and 20 million dollars each month.

At the end I've posted a pic of the Excel sheet I use to calculate my finances.

You can see that the revenue numbers ($142 million) should be correct.

I've also gone into detail regarding the monthly Farm, Scouting, and Medical expenses. I changed those monthly and the reason the numbers don't match the pics is because sometimes I took the pic before I changed it sometimes after :o

The total expenses that I calculated were $74 million.

In the pic just above the excel sheet Mogul shows that total expenses (plus payroll) were $118 million.

If Total expenses were $118 million and Farm, Scouting, and Medical were $74 million then payroll expenses must be equal to $44 million.

But if you go back and look at all of the side bar numbers you'll see that my payroll was never close to $44 million. It ranged between $54 million and $71 million.

So the $44 million number MUST BE INCORRECT.

If you look at the payroll numbers listed on the expenses dialogues that I posted they range between $36 million and $55 million. THIS is where mogul is deducting expenses from and it is incorrect.

I've also attached an excel sheet that shows my actual payroll expenses that I calculated. That number is $66 million. The $66 million jives with the payroll numbers listed on the sidebars as well.

I still hope that there is an error in my logic because if someone shows me what that is I can fix in instantly.

But, I'm pretty sure that this is a bug in the game. I hope Clay will fast-track this to be fixed because it makes a HUGE difference ($20 million) the finance aspect of the game.

I'd also like to hear from anyone (maybe some of you league players) who manually does budgets. If you've ever got a budget to balance I'd love to hear how you did so.

First, I want to mention something about Baseball Mogul that may cause errors like this. I use signed 32-bit numbers for dollar values, so there is an overflow around 2.1 billion. In order to prevent this, Baseball Mogul 2010 does two things:

1) Doesn't let you enter more than $1,000,000,000 for a team's cash in the team editor.

2) Severely reduces a team's revenue if that team has more than $300,000,000 in cash.

It's this 2nd point that can really mess with revenue expectations.

So, since I can't tell from the screen shots, please make sure your team doesn't have more than $300,000,000 in cash. If it does, set it to a lower number and tell me if you still see these problems.

Thanks!

Clay

P.S. Baseball Mogul 2011 will still have these 'caps' -- but I'm letting you edit them, and adding them to the help files. Sorry for the confusion.