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This I agree with. Educate, and keep illegal for aforementioned reasons however. To say however, steroids will become legal only for adults and we will educate the youth on their dangers is naive. How much more education does our society need on alcohol use, yet how many adults continually buy booze, and even host parties for underage children to drink at?? It doesn't work.Quote:
All I'm saying is this...as a society, EDUCATE, don't fearmonger.
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Originally Posted by dickay
Now I'm LMAO. :D
Oh well, like I said, you don't believe in freedom of the individual adult to make sound choices themselve, instead you believe the government should make it for them, that's fine. But it's not personal freedom, no matter how many times you include the phrase in your posts.
Nothing personal OFG, we're not singuling you out. But as a society we unfortunately have to all play by the same rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by OldFatGuy
I think it's stupid that I had to stop (i gave up driving for the most part) at a certain stop sign right outside where I used to live. It was not a high-traffic street at all. There was rarely a car or a person there. Now, I know that I-filihok, could roll up to the stop sign and ascertain that there was no danger in not coming to a complete stop unless there was another car, person, dog, whatever at the stop sign, and proceed. However, the powers that be (not that I trust 100% the powers that be) have determined that that corner warrants a stop sign for the good of the society. That there are enough bad drivers that not having a stop sign there would endanger innocent lives. So, once I got that ticket, I started stopping.
I do not believe that any person is 100% responsible for their actions. I think it's pretty naive to think that a persons action only affect them. "If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less".
Nor do I believe that any one should have 100% freedom. And I bet that you don't either.
Should I be allowed to install a nuclear missle in my back yard?
Should an eleven year old girl be allowed to decide to sell her body for sex?
Should I be allowed to walk in to the White House carrying a live hand grenade?
Should my girlfriend and I be well within the law to walk into a 2nd grade social studies class room and have sex on top of a child's desk?
I would hope you would answer no to at least one of these questions.
You'll probably want to ridicule me first, and, yes, I'm using extreme examples, but these examples are all part of a continuum. You agree that we should be able to limit personal freedoms, we only disagree on where
Well said, especially the car analogy. Problem is, one could misconstrue the personal freedom argument for anything that suits their purposes. Law is necessary to provide us with the personal freedoms we desire.Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
Actually, it's not. There are physiological changes that occur throughout people's teen years. Children and teens are wired, chemically, fundamentally differently than adults are.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
See:
Puberty
Adolescent psychology
(I only used the Wikipedia articles because there readily available online. Note that there are plenty of references in the articles. What's said in the articles can, for our (non-medical) purposes, easily be considered authoritative)
On average, scientifically speaking, puberty starts and takes it's course between the ages of 10-20. I don't see anything wrong with pegging the legal definition of adulthood at 18 and 21. Science backs up hundreds of years of observation very well, here.
I'm equally depressed that you're Victorian, puritanical attitudes are so prevalent these days. When I think of all that money wasted on "prevention", turning otherwise decent people into criminals for the rest of their lives, and not going to actually help those who really need it... I'm almost willing to call your ideology criminal itself. Your attitudes and the (hate) policies that the group which you represent have probably done more harm to this country and this society than any other in our history.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
:(
Just for giggles:
duh... what about education?!Quote:
Laws were passed in the early 1900's which cut the additions numbers down tenfold. Look it up.
:rolleyes:
This is just false. How about looking up the actual proposed law instead of parroting propaganda?Quote:
Alaska’s residents voted in 1990 to recriminalize possession of marijuana, demonstrating their belief that increased use was too high a price to pay.
um... duh. What does this prove? That people enjoy getting "high" in some fashion? So what?Quote:
* Other countries have also had this experience. The Netherlands has had its own troubles with increased use of cannabis products. From 1984 to 1996, the Dutch liberalized the use of cannabis. Surveys reveal that lifetime prevalence of cannabis in Holland increased consistently and sharply. For the age group 18-20, the increase is from 15 percent in 1984 to 44 percent in 1996.
So, again, one instance of failed management is grounds for criminalizing personal behavior for all? Brilliant...Quote:
* The Netherlands is not alone. Switzerland, with some of the most liberal drug policies in Europe, experimented with what became known as Needle Park. Needle Park became the Mecca for drug addicts throughout Europe, an area where addicts could come to openly purchase drugs and inject heroin without police intervention or control. The rapid decline in the neighborhood surrounding Needle Park, with increased crime and violence, led authorities to finally close Needle Park in 1992.
:rolleyes:
Oh, and guess what. Drugs use is still legal in Switzerland.
I'm not even going to bother continuing.
How about some propaganda from the other side. You do believe in "fair and balanced" coverage, right?
lol
http://www.drugwarfacts.org/prison.htm
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"Department of corrections data show that about a fourth of those initially imprisoned for nonviolent crimes are sentenced for a second time for committing a violent offense. Whatever else it reflects, this pattern highlights the possibility that prison serves to transmit violent habits and values rather than to reduce them."
Source: Craig Haney, Ph.D., and Philip Zimbardo, Ph.D., "The Past and Future of U.S. Prison Policy: Twenty-five Years After the Stanford Prison Experiment," American Psychologist, Vol. 53, No. 7 (July 1998), p. 721.
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"The United States has the highest prison population rate in the world, some 738 per 100,000 of the national population, followed by Russia (611), St Kitts & Nevis (547), U.S. Virgin Is. (521), Turkmenistan (c.489), Belize (487), Cuba (c.487), Palau (478), British Virgin Is. (464), Bermuda (463), Bahamas (462), Cayman Is. (453), American Samoa (446), Belarus (426) and Dominica (419).
"However, more than three fifths of countries (61%) have rates below 150 per 100,000. (The rate in England and Wales - 148 per 100,000 of the national population - is above the mid-point in the World List.)"
Source: Walmsley, Roy, "World Prison Population List (Seventh Edition)" (London, England: International Centre for Prison Studies, 2007), p. 1.
Boy, that's some good company we keep, huh? Imagine that, we're worse than the Russians, Turks, and Cubans!Quote:
"More than 9.25 million people are held in penal institutions throughout the world, mostly as pre-trial detainees (remand prisoners) or as sentenced prisoners. Almost half of these are in the United States (2.19m), China (1.55m plus pretrial detainees and prisoners in 'administrative detention') or Russia (0.87m)."
According to the US Census Bureau, the population of the US represents 4.6% of the world's total population (291,450,886 out of a total 6,303,683,217).
Source: Walmsley, Roy, "World Prison Population List (Seventh Edition)" (London, England: International Centre for Prison Studies, 2007), p. 1; US Census Bureau, Population Division, from the web at http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html accessed July 8, 2003.
:rolleyes:
Boy, this War on Drugs sure is successful!Quote:
The U.S. nonviolent prisoner population is larger than the combined populations of Wyoming and Alaska.
Source: John Irwin, Ph. D., Vincent Schiraldi, and Jason Ziedenberg, America's One Million Nonviolent Prisoners (Washington, DC: Justice Policy Institute, 1999), pg. 4.
No we don't. Communist.Quote:
But as a society we unfortunately have to all play by the same rules.
Anyway, I'm out of this thread. As is apparent, I'm not able to maintain a rational frame of mind in these conversations. How anyone can sit and defend the "Drug War" with a straight face is beyond me. I'm sorry, but I honestly think those that do so are idiots. That's just my opinion.
*shrug*
I'll see you guys in friendlier threads.
:)
Yankees!
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Originally Posted by ohms_law
Is this appropriate? I'm fairly certain it is not.
Quote:
INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOR
To summarize, we care more about the attitude of a post than the content.
Example 1: Sh!t. I just lost 3 pitchers to injury.
This is OK. It would also be OK to add a comment to the boards like "Please watch the language". But you don't have to comment, and you don't need to delete the post or threaten to ban the perpetrator.
Example 2: You're an idiot. Your post is stupid and so are you.
No swears, but this is 100% inappropriate.
Example 3: Moderator is a pussy. He shouldn't have told me to shut up. I'm gonna kick his ***.
Also 100% inappropriate, and this is the type of stuff that escalates into harmful personal fights between people. For the record, I have already called the FBI about a threat I received at my home from a past Mogul player. I'll do it again if I need to.
Threats against people (inside or outside of Sports Mogul) are ALWAYS inappropriate. You should delete them, and let the user know they can be banned. If possible, get another moderator or myself involved immediately so it doesn't look like a one-on-one fight.
Can we have a ban on Bonds discussions?
So your whole argument to legalize drugs is that our jails are full????? Our jails are not full of small time users and sellers of narcotics, they are full of criminals. Criminals who often their addiction led to theft, crime, or worse behavior. Legalizing drugs will do absolutely nothing to change that, it will in fact only worsen it.
It is a fact legalizing drugs causes additiction rises...the addiction must be fed, those addicted to drugs have trouble keeping jobs, they commit crime, the 'personal freedom' of those the crime were enacted upon was jeopardized, they go to jail. Elementary actually.
Your argument bears no rationale substance...you are better to run from it. Good call.;)
Well, almighty, not all of us prescribe to your way of thinking and we do feel that 18 and 21 are fairly arbitrary end points for an "average" age of "10-20".Quote:
Originally Posted by ohms_law
The HATE policies? Someone is a little bit too worked up methinks.Quote:
I'm equally depressed that you're Victorian, puritanical attitudes are so prevalent these days. When I think of all that money wasted on "prevention", turning otherwise decent people into criminals for the rest of their lives, and not going to actually help those who really need it... I'm almost willing to call your ideology criminal itself. Your attitudes and the (hate) policies that the group which you represent have probably done more harm to this country and this society than any other in our history.
:(
Now, THIS may be hate. What is inherently wrong with Russians, Turks, and Cubans? The U.S. has the highest rate of criminals the Russians, Turks, and Cubans should say this about U.S.Quote:
Boy, that's some good company we keep, huh? Imagine that, we're worse than the Russians, Turks, and Cubans!
:rolleyes:
More name calling. Some someone get a moderat...oh...wait...[/QUOTE]Quote:
No we don't. Communist.
I don't have a problem with him speaking his mind. I believe those who support legalization are naive. I don't use the word idiots because I think they are not dumb by any means....just ill-informed people who strongly stand by an ill-conceived notion that was wrong from the get go. If you look for any particular answer with a closed mind, you will ignore facts to the contrary and find what you are looking for in the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by filihok
It's not even ill-informed. About any stat or information can be molded to fit whatever argument you want it to. It's just your belief system.
Most of what he says is dead on, and I agree with it.
The point I keep bringing up and that no one will respond to is that laws are necessary to keep an orderly society. It's just a matter of where we put the laws.
Also, I have to add....how in the world is legalizing drugs going to reduce our prison population??
As stated, most people imprisoned for drug use are not small time users, they are adicts who committed crimes to feed their hunger. There are alot of dealers behind bars, and most are not your small time dealers. To think legalization will stop that is naive. Should the govt. have control of the sale of these drugs by prescription from doctor which is often advocated, all that will happen is the dealers will undercut them and sell it anyway..illegally!! After all, they are in the business of dealing drugs....they're not going to up and find a new profession. There will always be a black market.
Look at pain killers such as vicotin and oxycodine. People are getting killed for these drugs which become highly addictive. They are legal with prescription.
We don't need to look at USDEA studies, european experiments....all that needs to be looked at is Alcohol, nicotine, and even these pain killer usage right here in our backyard. If we don't learn from our mistakes we are doomed to relive them.
All that will happen is availability will be increased, addiction will increase, crime will increase, your jail population will increase, society will pay the price.
I haven't heard any arguments to the contrary.
One last take (maybe) then I go to bed
Take OFG, I don['t know him and maybe I'm just naive, but I really think if he wants to pop a couple pills before bed that's probably fine. He's not going to kill anyone. He's not going to turn to heroin or start up a meth lab in his basement.
Way it is now...whatever pills he's talking about being illegal...who's going to know. The police aren't coming knocking on doors or peeping in windows. The only way he'd get caught is if he did something stupid, THEN, he'd deserve to get caught.
The problem is that NOBODY thinks they will be the one to take a pill or have a drink and then go off and get in a wreck. But obviously some people do.
I hear a lot of the argument about being able to do what you want with your body. And I fully agree. The point that I was actually arguing was that they couldn't see the difference between setting the point here . or setting it here .