Steroids

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Give me one example of an adult taking a drug and harming anybody but himself.

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Wow, there are tons. I'll add more to this later....but for starters, you want to open pandora's box and make all drugs legal and at the same time our Govt. wants to handle health care for all. When all the abusers health deteriorates, as is the case with booze and cigarettes....now the taxpayer agains foots the bill. Its backwards...with giving health care for all you have to practice loss prevention and PREVENT people from getting sick. You don't have them poison, and say no worries you're covered!

Crime.....we could spend all evening going through unquestionable crime stats related to use and distribution of drugs. We can also look at many case studies where drugs have been LEGALIZED and crime rate escalated.

You can play around with those two for now....later will throw the example where the adult takes legal drugs while supervising children, and the child gets into the medicine cabinet, or plays with the gas stove, or the endless other possibilities we can come up with because the parents were smoking the crack pipe Uncle Sam sold them. :mad:

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

That has nothing at all to do with the notion that because it's risen in professional sports, kids using it has risen as well.

What you said in this post is exactly what I said. More kids are using it because it's more prevelent in society, PERIOD, not just professional sports.

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Thank you........yes, not just professional sports. At no time did I single them out. It IS part of it without question however. So by your statement above, you agree then that use by ADULTS is affecting others...ie children!

Yankees!

Sorry I thought I would break up the monotony.

As you were!

And still I love the hypocrisy of believing "Taking a drug may increase the liklihood of endangering someone else, so they should be illegal" BUT NOT ONE WORD about how the millions of guns being legal also increases the liklikhood of endangering
someone else.

PURE HYPOCRISY.

Next year, thousands. That's right, thousands of people are going to die on our highways. I know this, you know this, we all know this. Should we therefore make cars illegal??

The number one cause of deaths among certain age groups are death from homicide, and mostly from guns, should we therefore make guns illegal?

What gives anyone the right, who doesn't know me, to say that I can't swallow a pill, or drink a drink, or beat myself upon the head with a baseball bat if I want to. I GUARANTEE YOU, EACH OF YOU SO ARROGANT TO TELL ME WHAT I CAN AND CAN'T DO, WOULD GO BALLISTIC if I tried to tell you something you can't do. Mmmmm, radiation from computers is dangerous, therefore I'm all for banning you from using them. Like that? How about cell phones, no definitive studies on the safety of those yet either, how I about I gather millions and lobby against their use too. Do you know why I don't? Because I respect you and your abililty to make sound decisions yourself. And I expect if you fail to make those decisions, that THEN you should be held accountable.

Now, what have I ever done to you that you won't afford me that same respect?

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Just curious, but if you replaced the words alcohol and drugs with the word guns and the related deaths attributed to them, would you feel the same way about legalization or making them illegal?? Or do you subscribe to the theory that "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." While at the same time claiming "People don't kill people, illegal drugs kill people?" Because of course those are conflicting and hypocritical views to claim at the same time.

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Haha, i actually thought about posting on this earlier...but figured not to muddy the waters with political jarrgan. I am a bit torn on the gun issue. Although I strongly believe in the constitution....I do think there are times where are forefathers couldn't have foreseen what they had done. I see and agree with the constitutional reasons to allow Americans to carry guns....if we didn't own guns prior to the revolutionary war we may be Brits and not Americans. I do not believe it is only meant for those in a militia to carry guns. I also can't argue with the FACTS that guns increase violent crime. The states would be better off if they were banned. I could see rifles for hunting and sport...but don't see the reason for hand guns. However, this like cigarettes and alcohol has been ingrained in much of our society and is unlikely to change. I've said from the get go...we've made mistakes that are irreversible, it is time we learned from them and stop going down this dumb road.

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And, its nice when I hear folks admit loud and clear that they don not believe in the idea of personal freedom and responsibility. And usually, they are the ones that are the first to point at others actions and judge their patriotism or lack thereof. If one doesn't believe in the idea of individual freedom and responsibility, at least it is refreshing when they admit it.

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I strongly believe in personal freedom and responsibility. I believe we should have personal freedom, small govt. freedom over our retirement accounts, freedom over our healthcare, and so on so forth. The governments responsibility to provide us with a thriving economy and job growth, security, commerce/transportation, and then get out of our lives. A lawless society is a dead society however. Legalizing drugs increases crime and reduces that security and safety a free society deserves to expect from its government. And the worst part is, those who want drugs legalized want the Government to control sale of these legal drugs. They will then tax the heck out of them...more govt. oversight. This then creates a black market and it spirals from there.

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A person who does believe in freedom will say that that an adult, in the privacy of his/her own home should be able to do with/to his/her own body whatever they choose as long they don't endanger others lives or property. A person who DOESN'T believe in freedom, believes they have the superior knowledge and judgement that they should tell others how and what they can and can't do with thier own bodies. This is not only anit-freedom, but its arrogant, as it implies they know better what's better for you or I than we do.

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The problem is, legalization of drugs DOES endanger others lives and/or property. Alcohol and cigarettes/nicotine are the perfect examples. Its naive to think otherwise...what ADULT bought beer for you when you were a minor :rolleyes:

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And BTW, FWIW, there has never been a single CREDIBLE study, NOT ONE, that shows steroid use in adult males is dangerous. Not one. They have shown dangers to children, and to adult women, but not to adult males.

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And adult 'acceptance' of roids in muscle building and athletics have unquestionably trickled down to children use, which your studies have shown to be dangerous. Someone down the line children are getting them from adults. The more it becomes 'accepted' the more it'll happen. ie. alcohol.

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I also wonder how you would feel if suddenly drug companies were able to get the government to pass laws that said you HAD to consume such and such a drug on a daily basis. For example, if some drug company designed a drug that made every employees productivity TRIPLE while at work, I can guarantee you that within months of its inception there would be this clamor for employers to have the right to force their employees to take this drug if they wanted to keep their jobs. Guarantee it.

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Strongly against it.....however govt. is already doing this with our children and vaccinations.

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Guess our streak of agreeing with each other came to an end.

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I guess you are right here. Although it seems we both strongly agree on personal freedom, it seems we disagree that these drugs do effect others therefore effect our safety and security and need to be controlled. I think it is naive to think otherwise.

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Originally Posted by dickay

I guess you are right here. Although it seems we both strongly agree on personal freedom, it seems we disagree that these drugs do effect others therefore effect our safety and security and need to be controlled. I think it is naive to think otherwise.

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OK, if you believe in personal freedom. Why do you want to prevent me, when I get home in the evening, from sitting down, alone, (I live alone), and turning on the TV, and swallowing a couple of pills and relax and watch tv and go to bed.

What, dear God, what, in that scenario have I done that makes me a danger, or a criminal?

Answer, nothing.

But, because SOME people might do bad things, you agree to make it illegal to ALL people. To believe that THAT is personal freedom is naive, my friend.

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Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

And still I love the hypocrisy of believing "Taking a drug may increase the liklihood of endangering someone else, so they should be illegal" BUT NOT ONE WORD about how the millions of guns being legal also increases the liklikhood of endangering
someone else.

PURE HYPOCRISY.

Next year, thousands. That's right, thousands of people are going to die on our highways. I know this, you know this, we all know this. Should we therefore make cars illegal??

The number one cause of deaths among certain age groups are death from homicide, and mostly from guns, should we therefore make guns illegal?

What gives anyone the right, who doesn't know me, to say that I can't swallow a pill, or drink a drink, or beat myself upon the head with a baseball bat if I want to. I GUARANTEE YOU, EACH OF YOU SO ARROGANT TO TELL ME WHAT I CAN AND CAN'T DO, WOULD GO BALLISTIC if I tried to tell you something you can't do. Mmmmm, radiation from computers is dangerous, therefore I'm all for banning you from using them. Like that? How about cell phones, no definitive studies on the safety of those yet either, how I about I gather millions and lobby against their use too. Do you know why I don't? Because I respect you and your abililty to make sound decisions yourself. And I expect if you fail to make those decisions, that THEN you should be held accountable.

Now, what have I ever done to you that you won't afford me that same respect?

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I guess we do need some case studies for the ignorant.

In the late 1800's opium and cocaine and other drugs were legalized. They were viewed as drugs that only effect the user and could be taken safely, same arguments here. Addiction went through the roof, to the likes America has never seen, about twice as much as there is believed to be today. Laws were passed in the early 1900's which cut the additions numbers down tenfold. Look it up.

Here's some blurbs from the USDEA (Drug Enforcement Agency);

The Alaska Experiment and Other Failed Legalization Ventures

* The consequences of legalization became evident when the Alaska Supreme Court ruled in 1975 that the state could not interfere with an adult’s possession of marijuana for personal consumption in the home. The court’s ruling became a green light for marijuana use. Although the ruling was limited to persons 19 and over, teens were among those increasingly using marijuana. According to a 1988 University of Alaska study, the state’s 12 to 17-year-olds used marijuana at more than twice the national average for their age group. Alaska’s residents voted in 1990 to recriminalize possession of marijuana, demonstrating their belief that increased use was too high a price to pay.

* European experiments with drug legalization have failedBy 1979, after 11 states decriminalized marijuana and the Carter administration had considered federal decriminalization, marijuana use shot up among teenagers. That year, almost 51 percent of 12th graders reported they used marijuana in the last 12 months. By 1992, with tougher laws and increased attention to the risks of drug abuse, that figure had been reduced to 22 percent, a 57 percent decline.

* Other countries have also had this experience. The Netherlands has had its own troubles with increased use of cannabis products. From 1984 to 1996, the Dutch liberalized the use of cannabis. Surveys reveal that lifetime prevalence of cannabis in Holland increased consistently and sharply. For the age group 18-20, the increase is from 15 percent in 1984 to 44 percent in 1996.

* The Netherlands is not alone. Switzerland, with some of the most liberal drug policies in Europe, experimented with what became known as Needle Park. Needle Park became the Mecca for drug addicts throughout Europe, an area where addicts could come to openly purchase drugs and inject heroin without police intervention or control. The rapid decline in the neighborhood surrounding Needle Park, with increased crime and violence, led authorities to finally close Needle Park in 1992.

* The British have also had their own failed experiments with liberalizing drug laws. England’s experience shows that use and addiction increase with “harm reduction” policy. Great Britain allowed doctors to prescribe heroin to addicts, resulting in an explosion of heroin use, and by the mid-1980s, known addiction rates were increasing by about 30 percent a year.

* The relationship between legalization and increased use becomes evident by considering two current “legal drugs,” tobacco and alcohol. The number of users of these “legal drugs” is far greater than the number of users of illegal drugs. The numbers were explored by the 2001 National Household Survey on Drug Abuse. Roughly 109 million Americans used alcohol at least once a month. About 66 million Americans used tobacco at the same rate. But less than 16 million Americans used illegal drugs at least once a month.

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Originally Posted by dickay

Here's some blurbs from the USDEA (Drug Enforcement Agency);

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That's ALL you need to know, right there, about every one of those bulleted blurbs.

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Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

OK, if you believe in personal freedom. Why do you want to prevent me, when I get home in the evening, from sitting down, alone, (I live alone), and turning on the TV, and swallowing a couple of pills and relax and watch tv and go to bed.

What, dear God, what, in that scenario have I done that makes me a danger, or a criminal?

Answer, nothing.

But, because SOME people might do bad things, you agree to make it illegal to ALL people. To believe that THAT is personal freedom is naive, my friend.

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Your ability to have such easy access to these drugs increases the likelihood others, including our youth will get their hands on them. They are dangerous if not used responsibly...there is no question about it. Again I ask, who bought your booze when you were underage??? Its use increases addiction, crime, and the burden on our health care system. Its a fact that addiction decreases workplace production, ruins families, and so on so forth. They do not belong in our society...its not an issue of personal freedom. I should be able to walk down the street and feel safe in a free society. Drug use plays a large part in taking THAT PERSONAL FREEDOM away from me and you!! Therefore, it does effect us all.

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Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

That's ALL you need to know, right there, about every one of those bulleted blurbs.

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Of course it is....you can verify most of them through many sources if you'd like. Its a b!tch when things like facts and precedent get in the way of flawed theory.

Yeah, I mean, come on, dickay...you're going to tell me you're accepting at face value items showing that drug prohibition works from the agency whose SOLE REASON FOR EXISTING is to prohibit drugs? Aren't these the idiots who released that insane study trying to claim that a joint containing nothing but pot somehow MAGICALLY contains more tar than a commercial cigarette?

Now, personally, I am all for the legalization of drugs. However, even if we don't go that way, can we at least stop the fearmongering nonsense? You know what kida think when they read ridiculous garbage like that pot study? "Wow, so, they apparently think I'm an idiot." You want kids to listen? Stop treating them like they're retarded, and be honest (frankly, this needs to change even MORE when it to the ridiculous way we demonize sex in North America, but that's a different topic).

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Originally Posted by dickay

Your ability to have such easy access to these drugs increases the likelihood others, including our youth will get their hands on them. They are dangerous if not used responsibly...there is no question about it. Again I ask, who bought your booze when you were underage??? Its use increases addiction, crime, and the burden on our health care system. Its a fact that addiction decreases workplace production, ruins families, and so on so forth. They do not belong in our society...its not an issue of personal freedom. I should be able to walk down the street and feel safe in a free society. Drug use plays a large part in taking THAT PERSONAL FREEDOM away from me and you!! Therefore, it does effect us all.

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And you still refuse to answer how my swallowing a couple of pills and watching TV and going to bed is in anyway taking away your personal freedom. Yet you are content to take mine away. I don't even know you yet I respect you enough to never want to suggest making something you do that in no endangers anyone else illegal. Again, what have I ever done to you that you feel arrogant enough and disrespectful enough to me to tell me that I can't make responsible decisions myself?

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Originally Posted by Arctic Blast

Yeah, I mean, come on, dickay...you're going to tell me you're accepting at face value items showing that drug prohibition works from the agency whose SOLE REASON FOR EXISTING is to prohibit drugs? Aren't these the idiots who released that insane study trying to claim that a joint containing nothing but pot somehow MAGICALLY contains more tar than a commercial cigarette?

Now, personally, I am all for the legalization of drugs. However, even if we don't go that way, can we at least stop the fearmongering nonsense? You know what kida think when they read ridiculous garbage like that pot study? "Wow, so, they apparently think I'm an idiot." You want kids to listen? Stop treating them like they're retarded, and be honest (frankly, this needs to change even MORE when it to the ridiculous way we demonize sex in North America, but that's a different topic).

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LMAO...I understand your point about the facts from the DEA but these are facts that can be found anywhere. There isn't a 'face value' issue here. The only thing that is being taken at face value, is you ignoring these facts.

Fear mongering???? Since when is facts fear mongering. Why do facts scare you so much....because your theory is flawed. You think the DEA is lying about Alaska legalizing, and then a few years later re-criminalizing drug use??? Cmon now....fact is crime increases, additiction increases especially amongst youth, and our public safety and healthcare system is jeopardized. Those are indisputable.

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Originally Posted by OldFatGuy

And you still refuse to answer how my swallowing a couple of pills and watching TV and going to bed is in anyway taking away your personal freedom. Yet you are content to take mine away. I don't even know you yet I respect you enough to never want to suggest making something you do that in no endangers anyone else illegal. Again, what have I ever done to you that you feel arrogant enough and disrespectful enough to me to tell me that I can't make responsible decisions myself?

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I did answer it, you actually quoted my answer. Same reason why you can't possess toxic substances like anthrax, or create pipe bombs. Maybe you enjoy those things out of hobby but they are intrinsically dangerous. The fact you yourself having and smoking a joint is not the issue. The issue is the fact you had easy access, and legalization of these drugs unquestionably as a whole to society are dangerous for all the reasons mentioned multiple times. Our government has every right to enact law to provide safety, and security which provides us with our personal freedoms. You sacrifice the personal freedom of drug use for the multiple other freedoms our government must provide...why, because legal drug use has proven to take away those numerous other personal freedoms you hold so dearly.

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Originally Posted by dickay

LMAO...I understand your point about the facts from the DEA but these are facts that can be found anywhere. There isn't a 'face value' issue here. The only thing that is being taken at face value, is you ignoring these facts.

Fear mongering???? Since when is facts fear mongering. Why do facts scare you so much....because your theory is flawed. You think the DEA is lying about Alaska legalizing, and then a few years later re-criminalizing drug use??? Cmon now....fact is crime increases, additiction increases especially amongst youth, and our public safety and healthcare system is jeopardized. Those are indisputable.

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But a lot of the ridiculous information we're feeding to youth about what anyone would call soft drugs is...well, I'll stick with ridiculous. When cops are giving those stupid school presentations and saying that smoking pot is the same thing as shooting smack. Or, two of my personal favorites (both from the RCMP)...that keys of Canadian pot were being exchanged straight up for keys of Bolivian coke (WHAT? Drug dealers may be a lot of things...bad at economics is not one of them!), or that, if I buy weed grown in BC, I am somehow magically supplying funds to the Taliban (now, if they'd say opium or heroin...sure, that's fine...but this was just retarded).

Now, I'll come clean, I do occasionally smoke up. It's not a regular thing, it's just something I enjoy from time to time. I have absolutely zero desire to 'advance' to anything heavier. Nobody in a rational frame of mind, who knows the facts, is going to wake up one morning and say "You know...it's time to give that heroin a try!" However, right now, we don't educate kids about the realities of drugs...we just throw out a bunch of 'fear' messages and insane exaggerations, and then don't seem to understand why that doesn't stick. Or, we spend billions of dollars spraying coca crops in Bolivia and imprisoning people for carrying a speedball rather than, you know, maybe TREATING these people, or looking in to some of the reasons people DO get in to hard drugs (cause, you know, that would involve difficult questions like poverty and stress. However, as I am wont to do, I am realizing I'm shunting off in to a massive tangent...I apologize for that, I tend to get rambly when I get going :D).

All I'm saying is this...as a society, EDUCATE, don't fearmonger.