This whole trade is in the Yanks favor.....
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This whole trade is in the Yanks favor.....
In no way does that mean they're equals. Any scout will tell you that Kennedy projects as nothing more than a solid back-end rotation pitcher, a #4 or a #5, and any scout would tell you that Buchholz projects as a front of the rotation starter. Kennedy isn't even on the same planet as Buck, in terms of potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
But I refuse to get further involved in another Red Sox - Yankees prospects debate, or any other debate, with incredibly biased fans. I am VERY fair to the Yankees and the trades they make and the way I see their prospects and whatever else, if you can't exercise the same courtesy for my team when trying to have an intelligent debate I just won't get involved.
Agreed. The Yankees picked up a couple solid Major Leaguers and didn't give up anything of real immediate value. If Tabata reaches his potential down the road, then this looks a lot better for the Pirates, but as with all prospect deals its a steal for the Yankees right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD
With the Yanks they can always buy TABATA back later!
What drugs are you on? I would like some.Quote:
In no way does that mean they're equals. Any scout will tell you that Kennedy projects as nothing more than a solid back-end rotation pitcher, a #4 or a #5, and any scout would tell you that Buchholz projects as a front of the rotation starter. Kennedy isn't even on the same planet as Buck, in terms of potential.
But I refuse to get further involved in another Red Sox - Yankees prospects debate, or any other debate, with incredibly biased fans. I am VERY fair to the Yankees and the trades they make and the way I see their prospects and whatever else, if you can't exercise the same courtesy for my team when trying to have an intelligent debate I just won't get involved.
Dude I never said that I freaking agree with the Rockies. I never said they were equals. Did you not see my smiley with the tongue sticking out? I was hoping that'd let you know that I didn't agree, and was just kidding around when I said "apparently, Kennedy and Buchholz are equals."Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
As for you being "fair" to the Yanks... Ha.
I guess the real question is just how good is Nady?
his 330/383/535 is way over his career 281/337/456 numbers.
Last year was the 1st time he ever had 450+ ABs and him numbers tumbled in the 2nd half going 255/303/425 after the All-star break.
Please, point out to me where I'm not.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
I've given them plenty of credit for this deal, and always have. Its a good deal for them, they got a couple solid Major Leaguers without giving up anything of immediate value.
If you think I'm not being fair because I called Nady and Marte average to slightly better than average players, which they are, then you have a misconstrued view of fairness.
Nady is a career .281/.336/.456 hitter who happens to be having a very good season and he'll probably regress closer to his career numbers over the second half of the season especially as he adjusts to the AL, mostly on the shoulders of a very strong July. Nady isn't the type of player that will make a team demonstrably better.
And as for Marte, he was great last season, but this season hes been average. Hes sporting a 3.47 ERA this season, I'd hardly call that anything better than average. And hes actually been worse against lefties this season, given hes faced fewer of them, than he has against righties, so if you think hes your answer to David Ortiz or the other great lefty hitters in the AL, you're wrong.
If you think these two are the "missing pieces" then thats a statement in itself. Whatever happened to getting Mark Teixeira and C.C. Sabathia as the missing pieces, lower your standards a tad?
I do not like the Yankees, but mostly I do not like the media surrounding them and the disillusioned, biased portion of their fan-base. I may not like them, but I do respect them and I give them credit when they deserve it, and I also rip them when they deserve it. I'm pretty sure just about anyone thats seen what I've had to say about the Yankees would agree with me that more often than not I'm very fair to them.
Ok, I'll play your game.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
David Ortiz = average. Hitting .252, .352, .481.
Josh Beckett = average. 9-7, 3.83 ERA.
Jason Varitek = well below average. Hitting .215, .297, .351.
Jacoby Ellsbury = below average. Hitting .259, .327, .355.
Now, do I really believe this? Lord no... Ortiz, and Beckett are very good players. Ellsbury will develop into a stud leadoff hitter. Varitek on the otherhand... I am spot on.
Marte has a mid 3 ERA this season. That is above average, but considering his track record, he is a good bullpen piece. X-Nad is hitting .330, but has no track record. But guess what? Ever since he left that huge pitchers part over in Petco, he has been a .292 hitter with above average power. He is also ranked 2nd in assists for a RF'er, top 3 (I think) in Range Factor, and Zone Rating for a RF'er.
I think Marte just proved he's pretty good...
Oh really????????????????????????????????????????????????????Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
Um, ok?Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
A mid-3.00 ERA for a RP is pretty average. In fact, I'd be willing to bet hes right around the league average ERA for relievers. I never said he wasn't a good bullpen piece, I've been saying that he is all along, but hes no better than slightly better than average.
He may be hitting .330, but he is not a .330 hitter. Not to mention the fact that he is a historically poor post-ASB hitter, as gRYFYN1 pointed out. And over the past three years you know what his batting average is against right handers? .258, with a total line of .258/.337/.406 against righties. Hes a solid hitter, but hes not the type thats going to put a team on his back and carry them to the promised land.
I never discredited this move by the Yankees. Not once did I do that. I accurately and fairly evaluated the players they received.
The Yankees have mostly lefties in their lineup... well, pretty much ALL lefties. So adding Nady made all the sense in the world. We got him to balance the lineup and hit lefties, not to hit righties.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
Ok, one at-bat. And? Lets see what he does the rest of the season, shall we?Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Ok, thats all well and good. But hes still gonna face more righties than lefties.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
As I've said 100 times in this thread, I think its a good move by the Yank's, but it doesn't vastly improve their playoff chances and the players aren't much better than average, and theres nothing wrong with that.
I've already seen what he can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
Well, it boosted our playoff chances from very good to great, IMO. We already had a TOP bullpen, and not it is likely the BEST in baseball. Plus, we balanced our lineup, so this is a GREAT move.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
Yankees POFF = 38.1.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
And don't you think you should do some research before making wild assumptions like saying you have the best bullpen in baseball?
Good move, not great. Nady and Marte don't cover up the losses of Posada and Matsui, and the inconsistencies of the starting rotation as a whole.
Look and see how many games we have lost after handing the ball to the bullpen in the 6th inning or more. 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
The tape on your wrists is coming undone, both of you, back to your corners, re-tape, and we'll head into round 15 after the card girls finish their strut around the ring. :p
I'd much rather be in an UFC match :)
I'd rather watch the Yanks beat the Red Sox....oh wait they just did that 2 games in a row......well tomorrow is another day....for the Yanks to win!
No doubt! :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by RickD
You're citing their current year statistics and calling them average, while he's citing their career statistics and saying despite their great years, they're average players. No, you're not playing his game. You'd be playing his game if he was saying Xavier Nady is equivalent to Vlad Guerrreo.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
OPS+ for Nady in each year of his career, starting in 2003 but not including 2004 where he only played 34 games. 92-104-102-107-142. He's a slightly above average hitter. For a corner outfielder, that's below average.Quote:
But guess what? Ever since he left that huge pitchers part over in Petco, he has been a .292 hitter with above average power.
As for the Yankees bullpen, it's been very good, but not the best, and I wouldn't bet on it being better than it was in the first half over the rest of the year.
Anyway, are Nady and Marte upgrades? Do they help increase the chances that the Yankees make the playoffs? Yes. Nobody has said otherwise. All that's been said is that they picked up a couple solid, but not spectacular players. What exactly is the argument? Who here actually thinks Nady is a 142 OPS+ hitter? Who here thinks Marte is anything better than a solid reliever?
Gotta find this funny. End of May when talk of Chamberlain becoming a starter went full bore ALL the Yankee fans were crying, "who will bridge us to Mariano, our bullpen stinks waaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!!" Now granted they've played well since Joba became a starter but all of a sudden the Yank fans are now trying to sell them as the best pen in the league ("Top")????????? Are you kidding me??? Thats why people hate Yankee fans, arrogance and ignorance. They'd played well of late......Marte is a nice pickup......but to have full confidence and say its the best pen 2 months after crying about it is ignorant any way you slice it.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Apparently koolzach does :rolleyes:.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
:(
All I have to say here
I'm also curious why they even need Nady with the 'great' Lou Brock'esk' Brett Gardner on the squad?:rolleyes::rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
Yeah. The same one thats "slightly faster than Ellsbury" :rolleyes:.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Umm... WAY better than the **** bullpen that the Red Sox put out there. Look at our bullpen's statistics, and then tell me who the ignorant one is. Sheesh.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
He does have a point though. Many Yankee fans (I don't recall if you were one of them, or if there ever were any on these boards) were crying that moving Joba to the rotation would result in a disaster for the bullpen. Now, the young guys in their bullpen have surpassed expectations, and the fans are playing up how great the bullpen is, even though just two months ago they were crying that a Joba-less bullpen would be a wreck of epic proportions.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
I also don't really know what this nonsense is about the Red Sox having a bad bullpen. Really, the only difference between the two pens is that Mariano Rivera has been much better than Jonathan Papelbon. Other than that, the bullpens are very similar.
David Aardsma, Hideki Okajima, and Javier Lopez have all been very good. Their ERA+'s respectively are 159, 166, and 161. Outside of Rivera and Chamberlain, the Yankees have two relievers at least as high as any of those. Dan Giese has an ERA+ of 159 and Edwar Ramirez is at 173. Giese has thrown just 24.1 innings though, so far.
Outside of those 3 relievers and Papelbon, the Red Sox have gotten average (98 ERA+) pitching from Manny Delcarmen, and poor pitching from Craig Hansen (74 ERA+) and Mike Timlin (77 ERA+), and then a couple innings from other randoms. For the Yankees, Jose Veras (140 ERA+) and Kyle Farnsworth (124 ERA+) have both been good, while Ohlendorf (63 ERA+) and Hawkins (72 ERA+) both sucked. An assortment of other relievers have been good in limited innings. All in all, the Yankees bullpen, apart from the closers, has been better than the Red Sox, but not by much. Going forward, I see more of the same. The Yankees have a better bullpen, but the Red Sox have a solid one, not a "****" one.
So, witnessing such 'discussions' as these, am I the only one hoping the Yanks and Red Sox find a way to collectively lose every single game they play the rest of the year? God, would that be sweet. :D
I don't know what factors ERA+ takes into account, but anyone who watched Okajima pitch for most of this year knows that he hasn't been "very good". He hasn't allowed many earned runs, but he had allowed 12 of 17 inherited runners to score as of July 22 (according to http://soxanddawgs.com/?p=5073), which is God-awful. Does ERA+ factor that in?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Ignorant:Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Everyone else has used some stats with some actual substance, not saying "hes a .292 hitter since leaving Petco" (especially considering he barely played when he was with the Padres), and have given well-informed, well thought out, backed up points.Quote:
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
4. due to or showing lack of knowledge or training: an ignorant statement.
You tell me who the ignorant one is, especially considering the fact that HoustonGM, and others, have disproved basically every "point" you've brought up :rolleyes:.
EDIT: I know Nady had a season or two in San Diego where he played over 100 games, but even in those seasons I don't think he got much more than 300-350 AB's. He never really got a fair shake in San Diego. I also like how Nady is hitless in 7 AB's since joining the Yank's and he was supposedly the "missing piece". Hey, if you can use one AB to back of Marte, I can certainly use 7 for Nady.
I don't blame you. I'm a Sox fan and this whole season has left me with a sour stomach.....there have been a few exciting comebacks though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Blast
No. ERA+ is just ERA compared to the league average, adjusted for park. My above "analysis" was very crude and simple.Quote:
Originally Posted by immetoo
A better stat would be something like Baseball Prospectus's WXRL - expected wins added over a replacement level pitcher. It measures the effect the reliever has on his team's win expectency, accounting for game situation, inherited runners, and the like.
As a team, the Yankees have 7.801 WXRL to the Red Sox 3.538. However, nearly half of the Yankees WXRL is from Mariano Rivera (3.9).
Take out the two closers (Papelbon has 2.015), and you get the Yankees with 3.901 and the Red Sox with 1.523, still a sizeable advantage to the Yankees. 1.072 of that is Joba Chamberlain. Kyle Farnsworth makes up 1.841 of that.
The Red Sox have nobody over 1. Their three relievers I mentioned - Lopez, Okajima, Aardsma - are at 0.883, 0.755, and 0.765, respectively. For the Yankees, besides the above mentioned Chamberlain and Farnsworth, Jose Veras is higher than that at 0.982 and Edwar Ramirez is a tad below at 0.693.
Again, outside of the vast difference between the two closers, the Red Sox bullpen matches up pretty evenly with the Yankees, except that the Yankees have gotten better performances from the guys at the edges of the bullpen (Giese, Robertson, etc.).
As I said, the Yankees bullpen is better than the Red Sox, but besides the closers, the difference isn't all that huge. Rivera, by himself, makes the gap considerable though..
For completeness, the bullpens with a higher WXRL than the Yankees are the Angels, Dodgers, Phillies, and Rays. The Red Sox are 22nd in the majors.
Like Dice-K people remember the bad and forget the good.Quote:
Originally Posted by immetoo
In the month of July, Oki has given up two hits and six walks in eight appearances. Neither one of the hits he gave up were RBI's and I'm pretty sure he hasn't walked in a run. You take out June and he's had a great year.
Nope, you're not the only one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Arctic Blast
Why can't you address the question??? I never tried to portray that the Sox bullpen was better, only asked why the Yankee fans who thought these SAME pitchers minus Marte were horrific two months ago, and now claim they are the "top" bullpen in baseball?Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Baseball seasons are long...two months ago Yankee fans would have took Delcarmen, Timlin, and Okajima over Farnsworth, Giese, Veras, Ramirez, and whomever else they want to throw in the mix. Now thats changed........sounds like fair weather fans. Now my originally question had nothing to do with the Sox, but since you brought them into it I'll go on record as saying the way the pens are currently constructed I'll still take the Sox pen over the Yankees pen for the remainder of the year and postseason. I don't base my analysis of a fair weather two month review and won't knock Oki & Co. the way the Yanks knocked Farnsworth & Co.
Ignorance.
And Kool, i'm still trying to figure this one out. You must have missed it :)Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay