The rivalry

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Originally Posted by dickay

Finally some words of wisdom. I agree with you. As for Joba....Houston hits it on the head. This thread was made by Yankee fans trying to argue for some reason that there is no rivalry, never was for Yankee fans only for Sox fans. There's obviously something more than a typical game between these two, and if you've ever been to one you know exactly what I mean. The inferiority is highlighted in this thread by its initial concept. Trying to deny there's a rivalry simply is a way of saying Boston means nothing to us Yankee fans. The definition of inferiority complex is;

1 : an acute sense of personal inferiority often resulting either in timidity or through overcompensation in exaggerated aggressiveness

The opening post in this thread highlights the Yankee fans feeling of 'inferiority' over the Red Sox which is exactly the attitude 'Bostonians' hate about New York.

Finally...I should mention I've sat in the bleachers many of times with my Pedro Red Sox jersey on and had delightful games and banter with good Yankee fans. I even am nice enough to join them in the singing of New York, New York as I exit (games the sox win only lol). It can be done in good fun.

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Huh? i am saying that it is not all about baseball, all that you keep talking about is baseball.

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Originally Posted by Joba_Rules

Huh? i am saying that it is not all about baseball, all that you keep talking about is baseball.

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Because the subject of the thread is about the 'baseball' rivalry. The statements you made about the Bostonians feelings towards New Yorkers really do not do enough to justify your position. You say that Boston 'residents' have an inferiority complex towards NY and use three examples;

1. A football fan cutting you off saying she hates the Giants because they are from NY. (that clearly could have something to do with this baseball 'rivalry' as many NY fans I know hate the patriots because they are from boston)

2. A local newscaster being upset after Aaron 'bleeping' Boones HR. Thats the shocker of the day, thanks.

3. A girl who thought it was more prestigouis to open a play in Boston than in NY. Well...there could be a slew of reasons for her feelings there and I'm not in the theatrical business so I couldn't begin to figure it out. Because she thinks Boston is a better venue, she's got a complex.....but that means you disagree with her. Does that mean you have the same??? Does NY have to be a better venue to open? I know Broadway and all....but without knowing her rationale how can one make any decision on this? And how does one theatrical actor have anything to do with the city's feelings towards NY?

I will say all that aside, many Bostonians will tell you they don't like NY. Largely because of the Yankees and their fans who think they are inferior. This thread kind of proves that. Does it mean they hate all New Yorkers, no. Are there Yankee fans who say the same about Boston, yes.

Personally.......i think there are great things about NY. but its way too busy a city for me. I get overwhelmed and don't like the fact that its nearly impossible to drive around the city unless you have all day, don't mind headaches, and are rich enough to pay for parking. I mostly don't like the smog as if I walk the city for any real length of time it seems to effect me more than others and I always get a headache. No doubt however, there is tons to do. I enjoy the museums, the arts mostly. I know theres alot of nightlife and clubs but you can get that in alot of other places and i'm old enough to where i'm not as much into it any longer. I do like Boston better. Its easier to get around, the subway system is much much better. The history in Boston is richer as much of the early revolutionary war hot spots can be toured. Its still a busy city, but much more laid back than NY. I would put Boston up there with Chicago as two of my favorite cities in the country, and I've spent a short amount of time in many large cities across America. My views have nothing to do with Yankee/Red Sox rivalry.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I was at the Yankees-Red Sox game late last August (August 28), and saw nothing bad from either side. Although, of course, I only witnessed whatever went on around the area I was in. There were a couple Red Sox fans cheering for them, but the Yankee fans didn't do anything to them.

Of course, that's not representative of the "rivalry" as a whole. Really, I'm sick of both "hardcore" Red Sox and Yankee fans. They each have these elitist standpoints and just try to belittle the opposing team when the fact of the matter is that BOTH teams are VERY good and VERY well run. Sometimes, the Red Sox are better. Sometimes, the Yankees are better. Neither team is a bad team. I'm sorry for injecting some logic into the nonsense that is the Red Sox-Yankees rivalry.

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I honestly don't think the Yankees are all that well run...especially now that Hank is frothing at the mouth. And just so you know it's an honest opinion and not Red Sox bias...I also completly agree with the guy who talked about the..shall we say Red Sox inferiority complex rather than a Boston one.

Even now Red Sox fans are ALWAYS waiting for the other shoe to drop. Losing streak of three games and they're ready to ship to the minors/move down in the batting order/ break out the Francoma labels...whatever it takes.

There are STILL idiots who say stuff like the players won it IN SPITE of Theo/Tito. Earlier in the season people were calling Ortiz Big Popup. Give me a break. Ortiz could hit .200 until the end of his career, and they should still build a 50' statue of him in centerfield.

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Originally Posted by dickay

"They're still the best, they won 16....so what, sox won two." I say two because its embarrasing how few Yankee fans actually know the Sox won 5 WS before the two most recent ones.

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Hmm... as embarrassing as saying that the Yankees have only won 16?

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I was at the Yankees-Red Sox game late last August (August 28), and saw nothing bad from either side. Although, of course, I only witnessed whatever went on around the area I was in. There were a couple Red Sox fans cheering for them, but the Yankee fans didn't do anything to them.

Of course, that's not representative of the "rivalry" as a whole. Really, I'm sick of both "hardcore" Red Sox and Yankee fans. They each have these elitist standpoints and just try to belittle the opposing team when the fact of the matter is that BOTH teams are VERY good and VERY well run. Sometimes, the Red Sox are better. Sometimes, the Yankees are better. Neither team is a bad team. I'm sorry for injecting some logic into the nonsense that is the Red Sox-Yankees rivalry.

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Well, technically the Yankees have pretty much ALWAYS been MUCH better, while the Red Sox have had 2 very good years lately, while missing the playoffs 1 year, and losing in the 1st round in their 2/4 WS Champion run.

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Originally Posted by Pavelb1

I honestly don't think the Yankees are all that well run...especially now that Hank is frothing at the mouth

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You don't win 4 World Series in 5 years and make the playoffs for 12 consecutive years without being well-run. That Hank Steinbrenner is a loudmouth that doesn't know when to shut up doesn't mean anything in whether or not they're a smart, well-run organization.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

You don't win 4 World Series in 5 years and make the playoffs for 12 consecutive years without being well-run. That Hank Steinbrenner is a loudmouth that doesn't know when to shut up doesn't mean anything in whether or not they're a smart, well-run organization.

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When I say "I don't think they're particularly well-run..I obviously am referring to the present. 8 years is a long time in Baseball. As far as making the playoffs go....when you have a team full of all-stars you just need a handful to play to their potential to get to 95 or so wins. Last year Wang and Rodriguez carried the Yanks. This year it has been Giambi (finally) and Damon.

A well-run organization wouldn't keep starting the year off playing .350-.450 ball and having to sprint the final 50 games. That kills your team when you get to the playoffs and have to play quality opponents.

The Yankees are on the hook to Jeter until 2011!! Carl Pavano...Randy Johnson....Roger Clemens (Last years version)...the 20 million they paid Giambi last year to play half a season and hit .236....the entire way the Rodriguez contract--which in th end will prove a huge waste of money-- was handled. FIRING the very manager they had that did everything you listed (playoffs....rings...etc)

This isn't a slam on the Yankees. I just don't think they're particularly well-run.

Every team makes bad moves. It doesn't mean they aren't well-run.

And a technicality, they didn't fire Joe Torre. They made him an offer to resign and he turned it down.

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The Yankees are on the hook to Jeter until 2011!

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Jeter's value goes far beyond the field. He's earning that money.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Every team makes bad moves. It doesn't mean they aren't well-run.

And a technicality, they didn't fire Joe Torre. They made him an offer to resign and he turned it down.

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They would have done him better by just telling him they weren't going to bring him back. The offer was a joke.

I can understand people saying the Yanks are well run. I can understand the argument otherwise...yes during the 90's they were great. But something has to be said about the near 2 'B'illion they've spent since 2000 with no hardware to show for it. Yes every team makes bad moves....the Yanks throw their money around and make more bad moves than any team in the game. They can afford to....to a point. And they've gone beyond that point, hence no titles and a team that is a mess right now.

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

Jeter's value goes far beyond the field. He's earning that money.

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Everyone keeps saying that but they won't spell it out...are you telling me they're paying him 20 million for his leadership, and Eckstein Qutiont Grittyocity?

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Originally Posted by Joba_Rules

my comments were about the mood and the attitude of the city not specific to just red sox fans.

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The nicest people I met in NYC were the foreigners working the doors at the hotels where I was working. One of the guys even moved our van around the block for us every time a cop came along. Most were Africans, and spoke English perfectly, were polite, and intelligent. A nice change from the cavemen we were used to dealing with everywhere else that filthy hole of a city.

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Originally Posted by twinsGM

That's terrible. Were the security guards sleeping?

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Sleeping? They were probably in on it. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Joba_Rules

Huh? i am saying that it is not all about baseball, all that you keep talking about is baseball.

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95 north, leaving New York, the only time in my life that I've ever been happy to pay a toll. Really, if NYC was so great, wouldn't you have to pay to get in ?

And, as for the rowdy after parties, those are made up mostly of non-local jackasses attending college in Boston. It's become so bad that the city is now trying to force the local schools to hold their students accountable for the damage they do. The cops catch 'em screwing up, their names go to the deans office of whatever school they're attending for disciplinary action.

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Originally Posted by Pavelb1

Everyone keeps saying that but they won't spell it out...are you telling me they're paying him 20 million for his leadership, and Eckstein Qutiont Grittyocity?

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I think ohms was referring to his marketability.

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Originally Posted by dickay

But something has to be said about the near 2 'B'illion they've spent since 2000 with no hardware to show for it. Yes every team makes bad moves....the Yanks throw their money around and make more bad moves than any team in the game. They can afford to....to a point. And they've gone beyond that point, hence no titles and a team that is a mess right now.

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The mess of a team since 2000: A team that's consistently won over 90 games a year, made the playoffs each year, sold out their stadium (and those of the rest of the league) regularly and set attendance records, and been the most profitable and most valuable organization in American professional sports.

That's what can be said the $2 billion they've spent, because that's what professional sports is about. No titles? As long as fan support is there -- and it is, because they've remained a winning team that's interesting and exciting to watch -- what's important is that every year during that period they've been in the hunt for a title. What fan of any other team in any sport would complain that they haven't won a championship in seven years? What other team that in the past ten years has been in the final matchup for a championship five times and won it three times, been among the final ten teams in the playoffs (recognizing that in some sports just "making the playoffs" is a pretty minor accomplishment) and is currently in the mix for that once again, would anyone call "a mess?"

Really the kind of criticism that people attempt to toss at the Yankee organization is often just plain silly.

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Originally Posted by dickay

They would have done him better by just telling him they weren't going to bring him back. The offer was a joke.

I can understand people saying the Yanks are well run. I can understand the argument otherwise...yes during the 90's they were great. But something has to be said about the near 2 'B'illion they've spent since 2000 with no hardware to show for it. Yes every team makes bad moves....the Yanks throw their money around and make more bad moves than any team in the game. They can afford to....to a point. And they've gone beyond that point, hence no titles and a team that is a mess right now.

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I'd much rather have a team willing to take risks such as the yanks' signings of randy johnson, pavano, etc than a team like the nats whose owner hoards all the money & is more concerned with lining his own pockets than fielding a competitive team. Heck the Royals' owner, David Glass, was wealthy enough to straight up buy the team w/ no outside investors or bank loans (just sold some of his wal-mart stocks), but he can't afford to sign more free agents than Gil Meche, or at least re-sign more young Royals players?

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Originally Posted by Pavelb1

when you have a team full of all-stars you just need a handful to play to their potential to get to 95 or so wins.

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So obviously only a badly-run team would sign a team full of all-stars, because only incompetent team owners would want to win 95 games.

Yep, I just looked up "poorly run baseball team" in my dictionary, and it says "any team that takes action that results in winning 95 or more games in a season."

I think that poor signings is what was meant. The Yankees have made a bunch of them of late too. Sox also, but the Yanks trump the Sox in yet another area. :p

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Originally Posted by JayC

The mess of a team since 2000: A team that's consistently won over 90 games a year, made the playoffs each year, sold out their stadium (and those of the rest of the league) regularly and set attendance records, and been the most profitable and most valuable organization in American professional sports.

That's what can be said the $2 billion they've spent, because that's what professional sports is about. No titles? As long as fan support is there -- and it is, because they've remained a winning team that's interesting and exciting to watch -- what's important is that every year during that period they've been in the hunt for a title. What fan of any other team in any sport would complain that they haven't won a championship in seven years? What other team that in the past ten years has been in the final matchup for a championship five times and won it three times, been among the final ten teams in the playoffs (recognizing that in some sports just "making the playoffs" is a pretty minor accomplishment) and is currently in the mix for that once again, would anyone call "a mess?"

Really the kind of criticism that people attempt to toss at the Yankee organization is often just plain silly.

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Chill...I wasn't calling them a mess of a team since 2000 I'm saying they're a mess of a team NOW!! And any Yankee fan that can't admit that is in denial. Matsui, and Damon are on the way out, I think you'll see significant decline next year in their talent, which will catch up to their already declining health. Melky has proven one thing, that he's not an everyday CF'er on a good team. They have numerous players with their contracts expiring (not necessarily a good thing). Jeter and ARod sure are solid...but the right side of the infield is chalk full of questionmarks. Posada isn't getting any younger and thats just their offense. Pitching is really a mess. Wang's injury was significant...i'll expect him to bounce back however. Chamberlain seems good but young, lets see what we can get for innings on him. Moose, Pettite?? Hughes, Kennedy?? I can't say for sure if any will be in the rotation next year. Rivera's a constant, but anyone else in that pen make you comfortable in the long term?

Thats a mess if I've ever seen one. Consistency is what made the yankees great in the late 90's. Much of their roster could be turned over next year....and throwing money at the problem (which they will surely do) hasn't worked for them in recent years.

Every team makes some bad signings. It'd seem like by definition a team that can get away with making a few and still win 95+ times a season would be a "well-run team."

But nope, again, I checked and that's actually the definition of a poorly-run team.

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Originally Posted by JayC

Every team makes some bad signings. It'd seem like by definition a team that can get away with making a few and still win 95+ times a season would be a "well-run team."

But nope, again, I checked and that's actually the definition of a poorly-run team.

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No, that's a weal-thy team. A well run team wouldn't make those mistakes, in that quantity.

The Yankees are a wealthy team because they sell tickets, and bring TV viewers. That happens because they win consistently, and because they sign stars who people want to see. Having money coming in as they do means that when they make a personnel move that doesn't pay off, they can spend more to overcome it and still succeed -- a position that any team's management would like to be in. They both make more money and win more games than most other teams. What other metric for judging how well-run a team is could there be?

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Originally Posted by JayC

What other metric for judging how well-run a team is could there be?

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I'd say that you could also judge how well-run a small-market team is by how much they win with what little they have, like say the A's and Twins.

I agree, wealth is tied to success. Same with Boston, they sell a lot of merchandise, have great players consistently, and win. Doesn't make them well run teams.
Look at Boston with Matt Clement. They paid him over 25 million for an 18-11 record over the 05 and 06 seasons. He didn't even throw a pitch in the majors in the third year of his deal, and only did 12 starts in year two!
Julio Lugo anybody?
JD Drew? Year one was a bust, year two's good, but not over yet.
Eric Gagne acquisition?
Coco Crisp's not such a great deal, though the deal that brought him to Boston's a relative push at this point.
Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena?
Letting Doug Mirabelli leave as a FA, then trading for him, giving the Padres Cla Meredith and Josh Bard?
Making piles of money and running a team well are not always the same thing.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I'd say that you could also judge how well-run a small-market team is by how much they win with what little they have, like say the A's and Twins.

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Sure, in either case it's what you do with what you have. Management of a team like the Yankees would be managing badly if they did it the same way a small market team has to; management of a small market team would be bankrupt if they tried to do what the Yankees do. That doesn't mean either of them aren't making the best of their situations.

Some excerpts from Diamond Dollar$:

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Marquee Value
This dimension of a player's value is at the core og and ongoing debate that can be summarized by the question "Do we identify with the player or the laundry?" As long as we concede that there is some relationship between fans and individual players, in addition to fans' attachments to their favorite teams, we are implicitly acknowledging players' marquee value. Some players contribute to their team beyond their on field performance in ways that don't necessarily translate into wins in the standings. These popular, likeable players have fan appeal and are one reason fans come to the ballpark or tune in their televisions.

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Marquee value is the point where the baseball department and the marketing department intersect. Players with marquee value contribute not only to their team's win total, but also to the value of the team as a brand.

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etc...

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Anyway, the rest of the chapter goes on to figure out at least roughly how to determine a player's marquee value. Jeter is figured to account for about $3.9 million of the Yankees $778m total brand value each year, just from his marquee value.

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

Some excerpts from Diamond Dollar$:



Anyway, the rest of the chapter goes on to figure out at least roughly how to determine a player's marquee value. Jeter is figured to account for about $3.9 million of the Yankees $778m total brand value each year, just from his marquee value.

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Then even at 16.1 mill I maintain he's overpaid. IMHO. And what will his value be in 2011?

I wish you had said that originally...I scratched my head for awhile wondering how the Saberiffic Ohms could be buying into Captain Intangible.

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Originally Posted by robinhoodnik

I agree, wealth is tied to success. Same with Boston, they sell a lot of merchandise, have great players consistently, and win. Doesn't make them well run teams.
Look at Boston with Matt Clement. They paid him over 25 million for an 18-11 record over the 05 and 06 seasons. He didn't even throw a pitch in the majors in the third year of his deal, and only did 12 starts in year two!
Julio Lugo anybody?
JD Drew? Year one was a bust, year two's good, but not over yet.
Eric Gagne acquisition?
Coco Crisp's not such a great deal, though the deal that brought him to Boston's a relative push at this point.
Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena?

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Arroyo for Weapons of Mass Pena wasn't so bad...Arroyo stinks.

If his market value is ~$4m, that means that he's being paid $12m for his on field performance. For the Yankees, $12 mil is a bargain.

There's the whole rest of the chapter about this in Diamond Dollars that makes it pretty clear. Suffice it to say that the Yankees are probably underpaying Jeter, and will continue to do so even in 2011. For one thing, his marquee value increases every year despite possible performance declines. The Yankee's brand value also increases every year, and is set to increase dramatically next year with the opening of New Yankee Stadium, which also increases Jeter's value.

Based only on his on field performance he's certainly being over paid, but that ignores a whole aspect of his value. Jeter (and Pujoles, who actually has a higher marquee value) sells tickets and eyeballs, and more importantly builds the team brand.

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Arroyo for Weapons of Mass Pena wasn't so bad...Arroyo stinks.

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He was useful here. He could pitch a lot of innings, and at times was very good. I don't think he was a great pitcher by any means, but the guy could go out there every five, sometimes four days.

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

If his market value is ~$4m, that means that he's being paid $12m for his on field performance. For the Yankees, $12 mil is a bargain.

There's the whole rest of the chapter about this in Diamond Dollars that makes it pretty clear. Suffice it to say that the Yankees are probably underpaying Jeter, and will continue to do so even in 2011. For one thing, his marquee value increases every year despite possible performance declines. The Yankee's brand value also increases every year, and is set to increase dramatically next year with the opening of New Yankee Stadium, which also increases Jeter's value.

Based only on his on field performance he's certainly being over paid, but that ignores a whole aspect of his value. Jeter (and Pujoles, who actually has a higher marquee value) sells tickets and eyeballs, and more importantly builds the team brand.

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Plus he's scored about a third of maxims 100 hottest babes. Having someone who brings that kinda talent around the club is good for moral ;)

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Originally Posted by Pavelb1

Arroyo for Weapons of Mass Pena wasn't so bad...Arroyo stinks.

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Clearly, a bad half-season means the guy stinks.

Maybe he's done now, but they still gave up 2 years and 400+ innings of at worst average pitching, which is very valuable.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Clearly, a bad half-season means the guy stinks.

Maybe he's done now, but they still gave up 2 years and 400+ innings of at worst average pitching, which is very valuable.

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So Houston when you hear a bit of ridiculous sounding hyperbole such as "He stinks" does it send you running to Baseball Ref, like it does when I hear something like that...or did you just know Arroyo had been serviceable+ off the top of your head?

Fight!
Fight!
Fight!

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Originally Posted by Pavelb1

So Houston when you hear a bit of ridiculous sounding hyperbole such as "He stinks" does it send you running to Baseball Ref, like it does when I hear something like that...or did you just know Arroyo had been serviceable+ off the top of your head?

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I knew it. I just double-checked with baseball-reference.

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Just yesterday I went to Yankee Stadium with my blind great-grandparents. New Yorkers stabbed me grand-mum to death, beat my grand-dad to death with his own cane and shaved a picture of Babe Ruth on their guide dog's a$$.

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I love it. Sorry all, just wanted to stir the pot! Lets put this one to bed.