The rivalry

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Originally Posted by JayC

The mess of a team since 2000: A team that's consistently won over 90 games a year, made the playoffs each year, sold out their stadium (and those of the rest of the league) regularly and set attendance records, and been the most profitable and most valuable organization in American professional sports.

That's what can be said the $2 billion they've spent, because that's what professional sports is about. No titles? As long as fan support is there -- and it is, because they've remained a winning team that's interesting and exciting to watch -- what's important is that every year during that period they've been in the hunt for a title. What fan of any other team in any sport would complain that they haven't won a championship in seven years? What other team that in the past ten years has been in the final matchup for a championship five times and won it three times, been among the final ten teams in the playoffs (recognizing that in some sports just "making the playoffs" is a pretty minor accomplishment) and is currently in the mix for that once again, would anyone call "a mess?"

Really the kind of criticism that people attempt to toss at the Yankee organization is often just plain silly.

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Chill...I wasn't calling them a mess of a team since 2000 I'm saying they're a mess of a team NOW!! And any Yankee fan that can't admit that is in denial. Matsui, and Damon are on the way out, I think you'll see significant decline next year in their talent, which will catch up to their already declining health. Melky has proven one thing, that he's not an everyday CF'er on a good team. They have numerous players with their contracts expiring (not necessarily a good thing). Jeter and ARod sure are solid...but the right side of the infield is chalk full of questionmarks. Posada isn't getting any younger and thats just their offense. Pitching is really a mess. Wang's injury was significant...i'll expect him to bounce back however. Chamberlain seems good but young, lets see what we can get for innings on him. Moose, Pettite?? Hughes, Kennedy?? I can't say for sure if any will be in the rotation next year. Rivera's a constant, but anyone else in that pen make you comfortable in the long term?

Thats a mess if I've ever seen one. Consistency is what made the yankees great in the late 90's. Much of their roster could be turned over next year....and throwing money at the problem (which they will surely do) hasn't worked for them in recent years.

Every team makes some bad signings. It'd seem like by definition a team that can get away with making a few and still win 95+ times a season would be a "well-run team."

But nope, again, I checked and that's actually the definition of a poorly-run team.

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Originally Posted by JayC

Every team makes some bad signings. It'd seem like by definition a team that can get away with making a few and still win 95+ times a season would be a "well-run team."

But nope, again, I checked and that's actually the definition of a poorly-run team.

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No, that's a weal-thy team. A well run team wouldn't make those mistakes, in that quantity.

The Yankees are a wealthy team because they sell tickets, and bring TV viewers. That happens because they win consistently, and because they sign stars who people want to see. Having money coming in as they do means that when they make a personnel move that doesn't pay off, they can spend more to overcome it and still succeed -- a position that any team's management would like to be in. They both make more money and win more games than most other teams. What other metric for judging how well-run a team is could there be?

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Originally Posted by JayC

What other metric for judging how well-run a team is could there be?

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I'd say that you could also judge how well-run a small-market team is by how much they win with what little they have, like say the A's and Twins.

I agree, wealth is tied to success. Same with Boston, they sell a lot of merchandise, have great players consistently, and win. Doesn't make them well run teams.
Look at Boston with Matt Clement. They paid him over 25 million for an 18-11 record over the 05 and 06 seasons. He didn't even throw a pitch in the majors in the third year of his deal, and only did 12 starts in year two!
Julio Lugo anybody?
JD Drew? Year one was a bust, year two's good, but not over yet.
Eric Gagne acquisition?
Coco Crisp's not such a great deal, though the deal that brought him to Boston's a relative push at this point.
Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena?
Letting Doug Mirabelli leave as a FA, then trading for him, giving the Padres Cla Meredith and Josh Bard?
Making piles of money and running a team well are not always the same thing.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

I'd say that you could also judge how well-run a small-market team is by how much they win with what little they have, like say the A's and Twins.

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Sure, in either case it's what you do with what you have. Management of a team like the Yankees would be managing badly if they did it the same way a small market team has to; management of a small market team would be bankrupt if they tried to do what the Yankees do. That doesn't mean either of them aren't making the best of their situations.

Some excerpts from Diamond Dollar$:

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Marquee Value
This dimension of a player's value is at the core og and ongoing debate that can be summarized by the question "Do we identify with the player or the laundry?" As long as we concede that there is some relationship between fans and individual players, in addition to fans' attachments to their favorite teams, we are implicitly acknowledging players' marquee value. Some players contribute to their team beyond their on field performance in ways that don't necessarily translate into wins in the standings. These popular, likeable players have fan appeal and are one reason fans come to the ballpark or tune in their televisions.

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Marquee value is the point where the baseball department and the marketing department intersect. Players with marquee value contribute not only to their team's win total, but also to the value of the team as a brand.

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etc...

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Anyway, the rest of the chapter goes on to figure out at least roughly how to determine a player's marquee value. Jeter is figured to account for about $3.9 million of the Yankees $778m total brand value each year, just from his marquee value.

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

Some excerpts from Diamond Dollar$:



Anyway, the rest of the chapter goes on to figure out at least roughly how to determine a player's marquee value. Jeter is figured to account for about $3.9 million of the Yankees $778m total brand value each year, just from his marquee value.

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Then even at 16.1 mill I maintain he's overpaid. IMHO. And what will his value be in 2011?

I wish you had said that originally...I scratched my head for awhile wondering how the Saberiffic Ohms could be buying into Captain Intangible.

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Originally Posted by robinhoodnik

I agree, wealth is tied to success. Same with Boston, they sell a lot of merchandise, have great players consistently, and win. Doesn't make them well run teams.
Look at Boston with Matt Clement. They paid him over 25 million for an 18-11 record over the 05 and 06 seasons. He didn't even throw a pitch in the majors in the third year of his deal, and only did 12 starts in year two!
Julio Lugo anybody?
JD Drew? Year one was a bust, year two's good, but not over yet.
Eric Gagne acquisition?
Coco Crisp's not such a great deal, though the deal that brought him to Boston's a relative push at this point.
Bronson Arroyo for Wily Mo Pena?

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Arroyo for Weapons of Mass Pena wasn't so bad...Arroyo stinks.

If his market value is ~$4m, that means that he's being paid $12m for his on field performance. For the Yankees, $12 mil is a bargain.

There's the whole rest of the chapter about this in Diamond Dollars that makes it pretty clear. Suffice it to say that the Yankees are probably underpaying Jeter, and will continue to do so even in 2011. For one thing, his marquee value increases every year despite possible performance declines. The Yankee's brand value also increases every year, and is set to increase dramatically next year with the opening of New Yankee Stadium, which also increases Jeter's value.

Based only on his on field performance he's certainly being over paid, but that ignores a whole aspect of his value. Jeter (and Pujoles, who actually has a higher marquee value) sells tickets and eyeballs, and more importantly builds the team brand.

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Arroyo for Weapons of Mass Pena wasn't so bad...Arroyo stinks.

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He was useful here. He could pitch a lot of innings, and at times was very good. I don't think he was a great pitcher by any means, but the guy could go out there every five, sometimes four days.

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Originally Posted by ohms_law

If his market value is ~$4m, that means that he's being paid $12m for his on field performance. For the Yankees, $12 mil is a bargain.

There's the whole rest of the chapter about this in Diamond Dollars that makes it pretty clear. Suffice it to say that the Yankees are probably underpaying Jeter, and will continue to do so even in 2011. For one thing, his marquee value increases every year despite possible performance declines. The Yankee's brand value also increases every year, and is set to increase dramatically next year with the opening of New Yankee Stadium, which also increases Jeter's value.

Based only on his on field performance he's certainly being over paid, but that ignores a whole aspect of his value. Jeter (and Pujoles, who actually has a higher marquee value) sells tickets and eyeballs, and more importantly builds the team brand.

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Plus he's scored about a third of maxims 100 hottest babes. Having someone who brings that kinda talent around the club is good for moral ;)

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Originally Posted by Pavelb1

Arroyo for Weapons of Mass Pena wasn't so bad...Arroyo stinks.

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Clearly, a bad half-season means the guy stinks.

Maybe he's done now, but they still gave up 2 years and 400+ innings of at worst average pitching, which is very valuable.

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Originally Posted by HoustonGM

Clearly, a bad half-season means the guy stinks.

Maybe he's done now, but they still gave up 2 years and 400+ innings of at worst average pitching, which is very valuable.

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So Houston when you hear a bit of ridiculous sounding hyperbole such as "He stinks" does it send you running to Baseball Ref, like it does when I hear something like that...or did you just know Arroyo had been serviceable+ off the top of your head?