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Matsuzaka has a 2.84 ERA with 70 strikeouts and 52 walks in 82.1 innings. Kazmir had a 3.48 ERA with 239 strikeouts and 89 walks in 206.2 innings. Sure, the ERA is better, but lets wait for a larger sample size before declaring that definitive. Kazmir strikes out way more hitters, and while he walks a lot as well, Matsuzaka walks more. And Kazmir's stats this year are much better than Matsuzaka's :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavelb1
One more thing with Dice-K:
If he can double his stats and go 18-2 with a sub 3.00 ERA....shouldn't he be a strong Cy Young candidate? Yet he's not even in the All-Star game.
Each of the starting pitchers on the team have been better than Daisuke. Having 6 relievers is pretty ridiculous, though, and Daisuke probably would deserve a spot if they didn't fill half the staff with closers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavelb1
Fair points about Beckett...but I personally count his 2006 performance more to moving to a new team/league/city and getting aclimated. Many players perform subpar their first year in a new place. I also feel his postseason and big game performance along with his 07 season earns him an ace qualification. Pettite was a solid #2 most of his career and could've been a #1 on many teams. He's put up ace type numbers at time, but you are correct he's never been a true ace. However, in the postseason he HAS been considered an ace type talent at points of his career. To say Beckett is comparable to Pettite is not a huge slight on Beck. Pettite has been a great talent, though at this point in his career I'd say Beckett has been better.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
As far as Cano....I don't know why my review is being criticized. It said clearly he's been a great performer all-star type talent and this year he's struggling greatly but he'll likely rebound. Nobody has discounted his performance in previous years.
This is exactly the kind of **** i'm referring to. Cano has performed great for what, maybe 3 seasons?? And you have the gall to say he's Rod Carew made over???? I just find it insulting to put a young player, even one who has performed as well as Cano....in the same sentence with Rod Carew or Hall of Fame. Lets let the guy rack up 8-10 seasons of top level performance before we begin 'thinking' about HOF.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Are you planning on Cano's plaque to the left or right of Gardners?
I hear your grief. I've had NO PROBLEMS with what Dice-K has brought to Boston. He wasn't superb last year, but many expected too much. The guy is a solid middle of the rotation pitcher, which as HGM said is not a bad thing at all. Although I feel he has performed to my expectations, I hesitate at giving him too much props because Sox haters will jump all over it. My biggest gripe with Dice, is we need to see his arm make it through the entire season. The team greatly needs quality starts from him late in the season. If he can do that, he's arrived.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavelb1
Yankees!
I was just at the game today and I sat right behind Brett in monument park. Man is he fast! Did you see that bunt he laid down?
I am just saying that his career numbers so far are very comparable to Carew. I don't think that he is a Carew right not, but I said made over, and if he keeps up his career numbers, he is right there with Carew, the same type of hitter.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
And Gardner must be Lou Brock made over :rolleyes::rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Its just rediculous to put expectation and big 'ifs' on a young talent and in any way compare them with the greats. What makes these HOF'ers special is their longevity at a high level, very few can do it. Thats just my opinion.
Cano is one of the top young second basemen in the game today. Why isn't that enough? Why do we have to draw rediculous comparisons to the greats and discuss HOF in any way with a young talent???
Gardner is Babe Ruth made over ;)
I remember last Spring Training when Phil Hughes was being compared to Roger Clemens, before even having thrown a pitch above AA. It really is ridiculous. Can you imagine if Tim Lincecum or Clayton Kershaw were pitching for the Yankees? Their plaques would already be made.
Haha, you Red Sox fans are soooooo funny.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
I guess that Clay Buchholz didn't have the hype around him, huh? I read on different Red Sox message boards before this season started just to see what the fans thought of the team and their prospects. Just about every thread I saw about Buchholz is that he is basically the next Koufax. There were a ton of ridiculous claims like that. I remember the serious hype around Jon Lester, Andy Marte, etc... Though, Lester has been good this season and has proven that he is a solid future #2, or #3, or even possibly an ace.
That is enough. You were saying "WTF" about Cano's season and talking about his crappy average and OBP. I was merely pointing out his track record...Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Lol, and btw... Cano is a similar batter to Carew... according to baseball reference :)
I never heard any hype, and I wouldn't make a lofty comparison like that so don't make such a blanket statement. Do I think he'll be very, very good? Yes. Do I think he has a chance to be one of the top of his generation? Yes. Do I realize that its all very up in the air and he could just as easily be one of the best as he could bust at this point? Yes. I don't remember any Red Sox prospects getting the hype that Hughes and other Yankees kids have before even making it to the bigs. And Andy Marte, really? He was in the Red Sox organization for less than a couple of months, any hype he got was with the Braves, not the Red Sox.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
B-R's similarity scores don't really tell much. They're not era-adjusted, they look at counting totals, etc. Cano's early career has been similar to Carew's early career, but it's way too early to make any serious comparisons.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
I love this topic!!!
Oh, I am not saying that Cano is going to be a Carew. I am just saying that based on early success, Cano is just like Carew was.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
2 quick things:
I don't think you could consider Wang home grown, but I think he's being lumped into it. He did play for the Taiwan national team
Buchholtz is hyped because he is the only minor league pitcher who had 3 pitches rated an 80 by scouts... which is the highest rating you can have.
As far as home grown, IMO many greatly overweigh that. Who really cares whether he's home grown, acquired via trade, drafted, whatever?? What constitutes home grown? Do they have to be drafted, or traded for while in A ball, or AA ball?? Do they need XX amount of seasons in your farm??Quote:
Originally Posted by cartman00000001
In the end, it doesn't matter. Home grown or not, the Yanks have Wang. In this thread alot of players people would consider to be non-'home grown' prospects have been discussed.
As for Bucky's hype....for my taste he does get too much hype. I'm hard on prospects however. Buch's a nice prospect, has a lively arm...but has yet to prove much in terms of consistency and longevity on the big stage.
I don't know where or if there is a minor league HOF.....I really don't care about the stats they get at AA and AAA.
And I think quite a few of us are simply of the opinion that Cano and Carew don't belong in the same thread let alone the same paragraph or sentence. It just seems rediculous. Tomorrow a prospect comes up and hits a homer in the first at bat....I guess his numbers are not only better than Carew but the best of alltime????? Why? Again, saying Cano is one of the best young 2nd baseman in the game today is more than enough. Rod Carew??? Cmon now homer.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Houston seemed to agree with me, is he a 'homer'? We both agree that both of their career's early on were very similar.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Baseball Reference agrees with me... Why am I a homer again?
Because you are comparing a young yankee talent with one of the games all-time greats. Even if you're only taking a small sampling of their career, you're still making a comparison. Completely unnecessary, misleading, and rediculous. But apparently you refuse to see that, so go ahead compare away. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
I don't think it's unfair to say that Robinson Canos' first few seasons in the big leagues were similar to Rod Carew's first few seasons.
Anything beyond though, like saying Cano is "Carew made over", is a little too far for my taste.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Well, what I meant by that was Cano's first few years being similar to Carew's first few years. I HOPE Cano will be a HOF'er just like Carew, but IDK.
What I consider home grown is a team scouting, then drafting, an amateur player for their team. Trading for an A ball player, or buying a player from Japan doesn't count.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
wtf?!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by cartman00000001
My explination can't be any more clear. Sorry
I understand your interpretation of "homegrown", I just don't agree with it.
Its one thing if a team trades for a guy when they're at AAA or AA, but I think if a player gets drafted by team A, then traded to team B a or two year later and spends 3-4 seasons in team B's farm system as opposed to one season in team A's farm system, hes a product of team B's farm system.
Opps, I read it wrong. I thought you said you don't consider drafting a player is home grown, I was like "then what is?"Quote:
Originally Posted by cartman00000001
I follow you but my interpretation of home grown has to do with looking at a player who could be a MLB player with development which if you are already drafted, the team who drafted you believes that you will eventually (I assume) if team B trades for him, they believe he can do it where team A might have given up. That would be a case of better minor league scouting as opposed to amatuer scouting.Quote:
Originally Posted by YEAH DAAAAWG
Why does Chien-Ming Wang not count? Sure, he wasn't drafted, but neither are Latin American prospects that are in their mid-teens. Are they not "homegrown"? Wang was signed when he was 20 years old, which is an age that many players are drafted at.
its a good question that can be debated. It would depend on whether you think the Taiwan National Team is a pro team or not. Latin players may or may not play on pro teams. To be honest I've never looked.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Does it really matter, anyway?
a rhetorical question?Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Depends if you care or not.
I think that status does matter to people in MLB. Good example: El Duque had to go to Costa Rica or whatever to be a FA as opposed to be from Cuba, which teams could draft him (thus less money)
Does it matter to ordinary schmoes like you and me? Not really, but it's an interesting subject to me.
What I mean is...does it matter if a player is "homegrown" or not? Obviously whether or not the player is going to be drafted or signed as a free agent matters to teams, but that's different than a "homegrown" label.
it would matter if you are talking about scouting and salaries. A FA is obviously going to cost more than a guy coming up. As far as a deal for an A ball player, you have to give something to get something, right? If you draft a guy outright and he pans out, it just costs you the time and $$$ you spent on him.
In the end though, the outcome is the same. Chien-Ming Wang was signed as a free agent and now is the ace of the Yankees staff. Had he been drafted, what would the difference have been? Does it really matter if he is considered "homegrown" or not, because he wasn't drafted? No. He's the ace of the staff either way.
Grady Sizemore wasn't "homegrown" by the Indians, they got him in a trade. But, does it really matter? Is he somehow "less special" than a "homegrown" player like Jacoby Ellsbury?
It's really a meaningless distinction, and just something for hardcore fans of teams to argue over. "We have more homegrown guys than you!!!!"
It's not "less special" just less cost
Well, if you feel that way, there's nothing I can say. You trivialize my distinction of what is home grown or not. So there's no point in me posting any more about it. I feel it's important, you don't. That's all I can say