The other thing that pisses me off about the Yankees is that the fans and players always talk about how it is an honor to wear the pinstripes, while the fact is that players only go there and stay there for the $$$.
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The other thing that pisses me off about the Yankees is that the fans and players always talk about how it is an honor to wear the pinstripes, while the fact is that players only go there and stay there for the $$$.
I don't know how you can say that with any degree of accuracy without knowing the individual players. Are there some players that go for the money? Sure. But to just label every player that ever goes to the Yankees and stays with the Yankees as a greedy ******* is painting baseball players with an incredibly broad brush.Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
There's absolutely no way to say honestly that there aren't players who feel that it's "an honor to wear the pinstripes;" that is that they are proud to wear the same uniform that was worn by many of their own baseball heroes.
People do go there to wear the pinstripes. We just happen to throw money at them because we have it. Money isn't everything, it's really just a number. So if players wanna go there for the honor, then the money is just a nice bonus.
I think that you're the only classy Red Sox fan on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alloutwar
I don't think that "guys like" Kennedy and Hughes have fared any worse than Clay Buchholz and many other rookie pitchers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavelb1
The only difference is the no hitters, which are really over hyped.
Well, I thought you were one of the more intelligent posters around here, but you have severely disappointed me with your recent posts, dickay.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
To answer this particular question, no we aren't "desperate", but happy to see some young guys brought up.
And WTF? We cannot congratulate a rookie that has played a handful of games? That's just freaking ridiculous. I will continue to praise our rookies when they succeed, and will not cater to you or any other Red Sox fan, or that Metsguy poster. ****, I congratulated Jon Lester for his no hitter, did you not?
Yeah, especially since Hughes had a No Hitter through 6 innings and was overmatching the very good hitters from Texas... before he got hurt. Even though... Hasn't Buchholz been hurt? Or is his performance so BAD that they sent him back down to AAA?Quote:
Originally Posted by dannymac910
Oh, and before this season Jon Lester has showed absolutely nothing. I am sure the cancer had some affect on that, but even so. I think that young rookies should have more than a few starts before we judge them.
He got sent down for 2 reasons. 1) He did have a small injury. 2) The Red Sox are trying to limit his innings for the season to around 180.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Well, I seem to recall MOST Red Sox fan thinking that Buchholz was the next Koufax, and 'ole Buchholz is been hurt and/or sitting in AAA this year.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
Hmm... No gayer team than the Yanks, huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
http://66.79.163.197/_images/article...ncrotchyp6.jpg
Oh, my bad. I just figured that it was his 5.53 ERA.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
Buchholz is going to be called up to start Friday against Baltimore.
Try again.....although there are a FEW red sox fans who ALWAYS overhype the sox prospects, I have always been one to be on the side of 'wait and see'. I'm more of a Lester fan than a Bucholz fan, always have been.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
All that aside however, I have been very consistent in slamming anyone who anoints a young prospect as a HOF'er after a few short games or even a couple seasons. The quotes in here about Gardner are way too positive and early. I was and still am an Ellsbury pessimest. Although he's starting to win me over, I still need to see him produce as an everyday starter for a full season before I jump on the wagon completely.
As for the Yankee fans being desperate, what else would you call it?? Praising Gardner is one thing, but some of the quotes are rediculous. Face it, Yankee fans are jeolous of the success the Red Sox youngsters have had, and go to great lengths to diminish that and pump up their prospects ala Hughes & Kennedy as the next Koufax & Cain.
I'll give you that some Sox fans in here go too far as well, but I am not one of them. Pedroia has sold me and really surprised me. Obviously Papelbon, Youkilis are everyday MLB's who have proven they can sustain success. Lester I'd say is close but not yet a top of the rotation guy. May never be. Other Sox prospects have shown bright spots but are by no means are can't misses yet. As for the Yanks....Chamberlain, if he can prove he can stay healthy for a full season as a starter, looks to be a stud.
Thats all we know at the moment. I don't care what these kids do in the minors, or their first cup of coffee in the pro's. They have to sustain success over a full season plus to prove they are stud talents.
This whole thread about Brett Gardner?? Cmon, its a joke. Kid had a nice game....lets not go crazy.
I venture you know what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
Why is it Yankee fans ignore the golden thong issue???? Cmon really, it's better to talk about it. Really must be embarrasing eh?:p
As opposed to the Mets players, who of course go there out of the goodness of their hearts, and to play for a team with such an impressive history...:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by metsguy234
By the way, I just want to say that dickay and AllOutWar are both very fair, level-headed Red Sox fans, that don't seem to get caught up in the "hype" of the Red Sox prospects, and also don't unfairly diminish the Yankees prospects.
The same can't be said for other fans of both teams, though.
Joba Chamberlain is God.
Tell me some of the quotes that I've made about Gardner that indicate that he'll be a stud. I know that he is NOTHING more than a 4th OF'er, probably, or an OF'er on a bad team. He is not the future of the Yanks in CF... That belongs to Austin Jackson, right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
MOST Yankee fans are NOT jealous of the Red Sox's... It's been the other way around for many decades, and now the Red Sox are starting to get more and more "fans" with their recent success.
Red Sox have:
Youkilis - contributed a lot
Pedroia - contributed a lot
Ellsbury - contributed
Lester - contributed a lot
Buchholz - hasn't contributed yet, but will eventually
Masterson - hasn't contributed a lot yet, but will eventually
Paps - contributed a lot
DelCarmen - inconsistent, but has contributed
Yankees have:
Wang - contributed a lot
Joba - contributed a lot
Cano - contributed a lot
Hughes - hasn't contributed yet, but will eventually
Melky - contributed
Veras - about like DelCarmen last year; unknown, but a vital part of the pen
Ramirez - about like DelCarmen last year; unknown, but a vital part of the pen
Kennedy - hasn't contributed yet, but will eventually
Not even counting these 2... but they are young talent.
Robertson - unknown, but has had amazing AA/AAA numbers, and has done well in MLB
Gardner - he has dominated in AA/AAA, and has shown good stuff in MLB
These are the guys that are considered ML ready, or have contributed, on each team.
To say that we're jealous would be VERY wrong.
I would agree...Quote:
Originally Posted by dannymac910
He has DOMINATED at every level of his career. Brought up as the setup man... became one of the best setup men in baseball... Became a starter... Has a 1.86 ERA or something ridiculous like that in like 7 or 8 starts, and throws upper 90's after 100+ pitches.
I wouldn't go that far, but he is **** good.....:eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by dannymac910
I never pointed you out as making rediculous quotes, signaling yankee fans out in general, and you can see the first page of this thread for proof.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
As for your posts about prospects, you are far too giving, more so than me anyhow. Here's how I see it using the same spects you did as well as some you forgot. had to include the japs as they were 'rookies' for all intensive purposes a year ago;
Red Sox have:
Youkilis - a proven contributor, long term starter potential all-star talent but more so a solid vet.
Pedroia - has finally sold me as a long term starter potential all-star talent.
Ellsbury - has been brilliant but needs to prove he can do it for a fulls season plus as an everyday starter. accomplishments thus far however show he has top of the lineup all-star type talent
Lester - a solid middle of the rotation guy, has to prove consistency to be a top of the rotation type. Long term mlb talent
Buchholz - hasnt' proven anything at the pro level. sure a no-hitter is nice, but by no means has he proven he has staying power. prospect, nothing more.
Masterson - has actually been more solid than bucholz, doesn't have the same electric stuff but has proven if anything he deserves a shot. by no means a given, but has earned it.
Paps - a proven contributor, long term stud closer. one of the best in the game.
DelCarmen - average to above average middle reliever in the game. has to prove consistency.
Jed Lowrie - has shown he can swing the stick at the pro level, yet consistency as an everyday player has not been looked at yet. deserves a shot.
Craig Hansen - has shown mlb type stuff in relief but may lack the head game. has made great strides in the past couple of years and has shown the talent to be a major league middle releiver.
Brandon Moss - Like David Murphy, a sox outfielder who will likely have to get an everyday shot on another team. has shown signs of brilliance, but very little sampling, nothing to make one think he has long term staying power.
okajima - Stud middle reliever until late. will get every shot to regain form.
Dice-K - a solid mid-rotation starter on any team in the league.
Yankees have:
Wang - a top of the rotation talent, not an ace!! a solid #2 however on any team and has proven to have staying power, long term potential all-star.
Joba - outstanding talent, has persevered thus far in the starter role but needs to prove he can withstand a full season. top of the rotation talent at the pro level has been exhibited.
Cano - Has been an outstanding contributer, but WTF this season??? He'll rebound and is a solid starting 2nd basemen. Suspect defense however.
Hughes - Was great in the playoffs last year, but has proven very little consistency and is by no means a can't miss long term starter on an MLB staff. Does have near top of the rotation stuff which has been exhibited at the pro level, but alot of question marks remain.
Melky - despite recent struggles hes proven to be a solid mlb talent although maybe not an everyday starter on a world series team. has had moments however.
Veras - has been good thus far this year but alot of questionmarks remain. as with any middle reliever the same could be said however veras is beign thrown into a vital role awful early.
Ramirez - very little known yet...
Kennedy - has shown nothing at the pro level that would make someone believe he has long term major league rotation stuff.
Gardner - a fiesty player has added spark to a veteran team but as of yet has shown nothing to think he is more than a utility type player. Deserves a shot for playing time due to performance and the lack there of from melky.
Igawa - has proven he can't withstand the rigors of MLB talent and game. maybe in time he will settle down into a mid rotation starter, but no reason to think so.
Not an ace!?! The guy is a Cy Young contender every year if he stays healthy. I'm not being bias seeing as Beckett is the same way.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
wang is not an ace....every NY media outlet said the same thing last year. what hurt the yanks in the playoffs was the lack of an ace. He's a solid #2, as good as they come.....but he's not a guy I want in a can't lose playoff game. He's not a guy I want in a must win big regular season game. I'll take him any day on my roster, he'd be Bostons #2 starter now that Schil is toast...but he's not an ace in my eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by dannymac910
Thats the fair and unbiased truth. Now Wang is a #1 starter on many teams, including the Yankees. But IMO an ace and a #1 are two different things. It depends on how you look at it. This discussion has had more than one appearance on these forums. An ace or 'stud starter' is much different than a #1 starter as I view em.
Robinson Cano's defense is suspect? He is a top defensive 2B, including better than your boi, Dustin Pedroia.
Robinson Cano's range is heads and shoulders the best as a 2B in the league. I have heard many ESPN commentators say "Wow, I don't think that any other 2B in the league makes that play!" He has like 1 or 2 more errors than Pedroia this season, but he more than makes up for it with about twice the range, and twice the arm. If Pedroia is getting to the ball, the ball will be caught in the glove, and that is something I truly credit Pedroia with. Cano seems to lack focus at times, but has amazing range (as shown by the putouts, and an amazing arm).
I will give you this... Pedroia might be more consistant throughout the whole season, on offense and defense.
The thing that is wrong with Cano? Absolutely nothing. He has been very solid. Sure, you may look at that .250 BA or whatever and say, "Wow, that's terrible for a consistent .300+ hitter." Well, ever since April his stat lines have been awesome.
April - hit under .200
May - Hit around .290
June - Hit over .300
July - Hitting over .350
It is well known that Cano struggles early in the season, but will hit around .350 in the 2nd half of the season. That is the one thing that I hate about Cano. I wish he was more consistent throughout the seaspm about like Pedroia. Cano will be around .300 by seasons end, though, and I have no doubt about that, but I also know that Pedroia will be, too.
Right now, I'd say that the Yankees and Red Sox prospects wise are about a wash. But have a GREAT Front Office, a good team, both are VERY committed to winning, and both have TOP talent.
BTW, I would say that Wang is an ACE. Did you know that Wang has a better ERA and more wins the last 3 years than Beckett? Though, I grant you, Beckett is an AMAZING post season pitcher!
Wang has more wins because he's gotten better run support, and because Beckett had an off year in 2006 with a fluky home run rate, which is also the reason for the worse ERA. Josh Beckett is a better overall pitcher than Wang, and while Wang is no doubt an excellent pitcher, he's win total leads to him being overrated.
Dice-K - a solid mid-rotation starter on any team in the league
.900 winning percentage and a 2.82 ERA....what's this guy got to do to get some respect?
*I love this thread but it's all over the place :>
Well... absolutely nothing like going 11-2 and winning the clinching game of the World Series, pitching 5 2/3 innings and giving up 0 ER and 3 hits.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
I'd go with...stop walking the ballpark.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavelb1
BAA of .201.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM
He's wily! He lets batters tire themselves out mentally and physically "clogging up the bases".
His BABIP is a very low .254. Last year, it was .306. In his recent years in Japan, he hasn't demonstrated any ability to keep his BABIP that low. It'll likely go up, and with it, his ERA. He's about the pitcher he was last year - a solid mid-rotation pitcher, one who could become a top-rotation guy if he stops walking so many batters AND goes deeper into games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavelb1
CONSISTENCY!! I really don't care about a pitchers winning percentage, as mentioned in some cases (wang) its highly inflated. Dice has been brilliant at times this year and at others he has walked the park. I said he's a solid middle of the rotation pitcher, and with his inconsistency, #2 or #3 starter on any team in the league is pretty accurate. He's not an ace or a #1 on a good team....though has shown signs of brilliance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pavelb1
I don't care about Cano's BA, he's got an OBP of .288 or something. Absolutely horrific Julio Lugo type numbers. As for his defense, I may be wrong as I don't pay great attention, well any, to range factors and the like. More eye test, and I for some reason thought Cano made alot of errors the past few years. Looking at it, maybe he hasn't. Anyhow, I said he's a solid everyday 2nd basemen who will rebound. He's an all-star talent. What more do you wish me to make of him? Are you looking for him to get a plaque alongside Gardner already? :)Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
I love Cano too but it seems a lot of time he just makes lazy plays, which won't count as errors but usually end up haunting us. He is a fantastic hitter and I wish they would put him in the #3 spot and let him be a little more patient at the plate.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
You know, I find it pretty funny how people take such offense when somebody calls a good pitcher anything less than an ace. A #2/3 starter is a very good pitcher.Quote:
Originally Posted by dickay
How do you "let him" be more patient? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by dannymac910
Wang's ERA has been top notch since he has entered the league. He was pitching with a low 3 ERA most of this year before he got shelled 3 times in a row or so.
Houston... What up with calling Beckett's 2006 year a fluke, basically? Sure, you said that his HR rate was a fluke, and that inflated his ERA. The thing is... Too be considered an ace, you cannot have a year with a 5.00+ ERA and give up 36-38 homers, or whatever it was... unless it was early in your career. I have to tell ya... Beckett is an inconsistent young Andy Pettite. By that, I mean... He's never really had ace type numbers. Sure, 2007 was an ace type year, with ace type numbers, but I need to see that consistently. Pettite has had some years where he has posted ace type numbers before, but I doubt anyone would've ever really considered him an ace at any point in his career. Another similarity about them, are that both are big game pitchers. Both step it up in the playoffs and have a great track record in the post season, to go along with solid regular season numbers.
Dickay - Need to add something. Robinson Cano does NOT walk much at all... He's a hacker, about like Vlad. The thing is, his .289 OBP looks suckish, and it is, but I don't think that anyone should discredit his previous 2 years where his OBP was .350 and .365.
Yeah, I think that Cano could be a HOF player on day. ****, the guy is basically Rod Carew made over. Robinson just needs to stay consistent during the whole season. He's considered by many to be the 3rd best 2B in MLB overall, right next to Utley and Uggla. If Cano could even just hit .300 during the 1st half of the season, his end of season average will be around .340 or better. I don't know about putting him in the 3 spot, though. I need to see more walks from him before I let him take Abreu's place. I would, however, not mind Giambi in the 3 spot with Abreu batting 5th or 6th, or even A-Rod in the 3 spot with Giambi 4th... works either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by dannymac910
It was a fluke. Completely out of line with the rest of his career.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
He wasn't an ace that year. He was in 2007. He's been for the most part in 2008. Players of all calibers have fluke seasons. Check out Greg Maddux 1999. Superficially, it looks right in line with the rest of his career, with 19 wins, but his ERA+ was 20 points lower than any other season from 1992 to 2002, and his WHIP was 1.35, also wildly out of line with the rest of his peak.Quote:
The thing is... Too be considered an ace, you cannot have a year with a 5.00+ ERA and give up 36-38 homers, or whatever it was... unless it was early in your career.
This is true. I just think that Beckett very likely has hit a new point in his career. He was always a top prospect with gigantic potential, bothered by blister injuries. Now that he's over that, I think he's reached a new level of performance.Quote:
I have to tell ya... Beckett is an inconsistent young Andy Pettite. By that, I mean... He's never really had ace type numbers. Sure, 2007 was an ace type year, with ace type numbers, but I need to see that consistently.
That praise is a bit too high. I've heard that comparison before but I don't see how it's true, at least not yet. Carew was faster, and walked more. Although, Carew did improve his walk rate in his mid-20's, but his walk rate was still higher than Cano's is before he improved it.Quote:
Originally Posted by koolzach1
No offense taken, but i feel Dice-K gets a bad rap because of his reputation as a wild pitcher and the mercenary-like nature of his arrival to the Sox. Meanwhile Scott Kazmir last year had a rep as a lights out stud but Dice-K's stats this year are way better than Kazmirs were last year. His ERA is lower than Sabathias was last year too.Quote:
Originally Posted by HoustonGM